Late Game Fouling

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Not a soul in the building (even the coach who's team is getting fouled) is going to say a word if you take the foul...

I disagree. If the offensive player is just standing there with the ball and the opponent comes up and puts his hands on him, it's fine to call a foul. BOTH teams are happy with that.

However, if the team with the lead is moving the ball around and playing keep -away to run time off the clock, then they have every right to be upset with you for calling a touch foul. That most certainly is NOT what they want. You just favored their opponent.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

However, if the team with the lead is moving the ball around and playing keep -away to run time off the clock, then they have every right to be upset with you for calling a touch foul. That most certainly is NOT what they want. You just favored their opponent.

They have the right, but they ALL (100%, TAKE IT TO THE BANK) won't say a word on a TAKE foul, cause they understand what is trying to take place.

NEVER EVER had a coach mad that his team is getting purposely fouled even if they are passing the ball around... NEVER

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

They have the right, but they ALL (100%, TAKE IT TO THE BANK) won't say a word on a TAKE foul, cause they understand what is trying to take place.

NEVER EVER had a coach mad that his team is getting purposely fouled even if they are passing the ball around... NEVER

I must take issue with your statements, here. As a coach, if you were calling a touch "TAKE" foul on my weakest FTer while my team is running our spread offense, I WILL absolutely give you an earful.

In Ohio we have no shot clock. If my team is up by four with 30 seconds remaining in the game, I MUCH prefer to keep the clock moving by continuing to move the ball. ESPECIALLY as opposed to sending my 53% FTer to the line for a 1-and-1 on a touch foul after he has already passed the ball.

I understand what you are saying in terms of trying to prevent the retaliation that is caused by missing a fairly significant contact. But, I think we have to be careful here until the NFHS changes the rules -- and their POEs. Perhaps, some day, they will allow the coach to "order a foul" and the officials would grant it -- like a time-out. But, until that happens, I am thinking that I want to make sure that contact deserving of a foul is expected -- by BOTH coaches.

Just my opinion.....You certainly have the right to have a different view.....

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

I must take issue with your statements, here. As a coach, if you were calling a touch "TAKE" foul on my weakest FTer while my team is running our spread offense, I WILL absolutely give you an earful.

In Ohio we have no shot clock. If my team is up by four with 30 seconds remaining in the game, I MUCH prefer to keep the clock moving by continuing to move the ball. ESPECIALLY as opposed to sending my 53% FTer to the line for a 1-and-1 on a touch foul after he has already passed the ball.

I understand what you are saying in terms of trying to prevent the retaliation that is caused by missing a fairly significant contact. But, I think we have to be careful here until the NFHS changes the rules -- and their POEs. Perhaps, some day, they will allow the coach to "order a foul" and the officials would grant it -- like a time-out. But, until that happens, I am thinking that I want to make sure that contact deserving of a foul is expected -- by BOTH coaches.

Just my opinion.....You certainly have the right to have a different view.....

I agree with not calling slight contact when the ball is long gone, but i take exception to your comment about your poor FT shooter. My father coached actively for 30 yrs. and now is more of a consultant in coaching and so i know the game from a coaching standpoint as well and i'm pretty sure you don't know what your doing if A) your poor FT shooter is touching the ball during the passing process and B) your poor FT shooter is even in the game.

No coach wants their worst shooter going to the FT lane and i understand that

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I agree with not calling slight contact when the ball is long gone, but i take exception to your comment about your poor FT shooter. My father coached actively for 30 yrs. and now is more of a consultant in coaching and so i know the game from a coaching standpoint as well and i'm pretty sure you don't know what your doing if A) your poor FT shooter is touching the ball during the passing process and B) your poor FT shooter is even in the game.

No coach wants their worst shooter going to the FT lane and i understand that

So John Calipari doesn't know what he is doing?

Perhaps the whole team is poor from the FT line.

Face it, your whole conception of this is shaped by the money-driven NBE. That league needs to make it such that the team that is behind has a good chance to come back and win in the final minutes in order to prevent TV viewers from shutting off the game in the last quarter. It's all about selling ads and getting TV money.

Sadly, the NCAA game has moved in that direction in the past 20 years with the rise in the popularity of the NCAA tournament. However, the HS game doesn't need that and hopefully won't go that way.

You can save your pro philosophy for the pro game.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So John Calipari doesn't know what he is doing?

Perhaps the whole team is poor from the FT line.

Face it, your whole conception of this is shaped by the money-driven NBE. That league needs to make it such that the team that is behind has a good chance to come back and win in the final minutes in order to prevent TV viewers from shutting off the game in the last quarter. It's all about selling ads and getting TV money.

Sadly, the NCAA game has moved in that direction in the past 20 years with the rise in the popularity of the NCAA tournament. However, the HS game doesn't need that and hopefully won't go that way.

You can save your pro philosophy for the pro game.

Whatever. I would bet that you are in a distinct minority on this one, regardless of the NFHS's official position and the text you posted.

I've also never had a complaint in making such a call. All fouls I call would be supported on video, but I'm not going to be as patient on my whistle in the last few minutes when the one team is TRYING to foul. Lunge, contact that's a legitimate foul, tweet. Not.....let's see if he plays through it.......

And I think that is the key. If contact that's ruled incidental in the first quarter is ruled that way when a team is trying to foul, well, then that team is going to try harder.

Acting like the circumstances are the same doesn't make them that way -- in the first quarter, the defense isn't trying to stop the clock with a foul and the contact will be isolated to the initial contact, not on escalating amounts until the foul is called (and someone is laying on the floor).

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Acting like the circumstances are the same doesn't make them that way -- in the first quarter, the defense isn't trying to stop the clock with a foul and the contact will be isolated to the initial contact, not on escalating amounts until the foul is called (and someone is laying on the floor).

I think that this is an excellent point.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Acting like the circumstances are the same doesn't make them that way -- in the first quarter, the defense isn't trying to stop the clock with a foul and the contact will be isolated to the initial contact, not on escalating amounts until the foul is called (and someone is laying on the floor).

Of course the game circumstances are different, but the rules aren't. I still have yet to have anyone show me in the rule or case book where the standard for calling a foul is different at the end of the game than it is in the beginning.

I will agree if the offense stands there and is willing to "take" a foul, then yes, we should call the foul when the defense comes up and puts their hands on the offense. But if the offense is doing their job and keeping away from the defense, why should we penalize them by stopping the clock for something that is not a foul at any other time in the game? Is the answer is simply that we want to avoid escalating amounts of contact until someone's on the floor? Then my response is we missed calling a foul on one of those "escalating amounts of contact". If none of those amounts of contact would've warranted a foul call in the beginning of the game, and the player gets frustrated and puts the offense on the floor, then we need to call the intentional or flagrant. That's a coaching issue - if the players have not been taught to foul "properly" at the end of the game, it's not our job to penalize the offense and stop the clock because we're afraid the defense might get frustrated and put someone on the floor.

It's not our job keep players from being frustrated. Example: A1 gets the ball in the low post, makes his move, and B1 blocks the shot. You see a little bit of body contact, but not enough to affect the shot, and therefore no foul. Now, this same thing happens two more times down the court. Finally, A1 shows his frustration by lowering his shoulder into B1 and knocking him to the floor. So, what would your response be if I told you that you should've called a foul on one of the earlier blocks so A1 doesn't get frustrated and put B1 to the floor in that instance? Of course, if there was no foul initially, it's not our job to call something that isn't there simply to prevent frustration later.

Maybe, in realty, what we would both call in these situations is not that far apart. But what I'm reacting to is the comment that we should call a foul on "any amount of contact" in this situation. I have seen fouls called on a touch: "Tag, you're fouled." To me that's both lazy coaching and lazy officiating; the coach hasn't taught the players how to foul the proper way, and the official is putting aside their judgement to make an easy call. Yes, we should be aware of the time and situation - we should know which team is behind, that they will probably want to foul to stop the clock. We should be more aware of how they will try to do that, and work to be in position to get the contact that really is a foul. We should not take the easy way out and call a foul on simply any contact.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I agree with not calling slight contact when the ball is long gone, but i take exception to your comment about your poor FT shooter. My father coached actively for 30 yrs. and now is more of a consultant in coaching and so i know the game from a coaching standpoint as well and i'm pretty sure you don't know what your doing if A) your poor FT shooter is touching the ball during the passing process and B) your poor FT shooter is even in the game.

No coach wants their worst shooter going to the FT lane and i understand that

Ummmm.....I'm pretty sure that I had years (especially Jr. Hi years) in which my 5th best FTer was a 53% shooter (or perhaps 4th or 3rd best).....and I think I would do just fine in a "coaching of the game" contest.

I still maintain that we should not be ASSUMING that the coach ahead wants a foul to be called (even if his BEST FTer had been fouled) -- they may still prefer the clock to run. That was your assertion. I still disagree with that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

They have the right, but they ALL (100%, TAKE IT TO THE BANK) won't say a word on a TAKE foul, cause they understand what is trying to take place.
NEVER EVER had a coach mad that his team is getting purposely fouled even if they are passing the ball around... NEVER

I can tell you definitively that this is wrong. First you admit that they have the right to complain, then you justify your philosophy because the ones you've had haven't taken the time to give you an earful? Good grief.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I disagree. If the offensive player is just standing there with the ball and the opponent comes up and puts his hands on him, it's fine to call a foul. BOTH teams are happy with that.

However, if the team with the lead is moving the ball around and playing keep -away to run time off the clock, then they have every right to be upset with you for calling a touch foul. That most certainly is NOT what they want. You just favored their opponent.

I disagree. Most times when I try to "pass" on these endgame deliberate touch fouls, the next act is, at a minimum, a borderline intentional foul. That coach is now even less happy after their star player is the recipient of a hard foul. After trying both options over the years...calling the first contact is wise. The NFHS has reversed itself on the topic of late game fouls. The NFHS has since said, late game fouling is an accepted part of the game and should be expected. We shouldn't require a team to be overly aggresive in order to get a foul call even when the team with the ball would rather just run the clock out.

[Nevadaref]

1. If the defender causes excessive contact and whacks the opponent's star player have the stones to call an intentional.

2. The NFHS has certainly NOT reversed its position on late game fouling as you claim. It still wants the level of contact for a foul to be consistent throughout the game. The NFHS has merely said that fouling near the end of a game is an acceptable strategy and that the fouls aren't to automatically be deemed intentional even though they are purposely committed and done to stop the clock, as long as the player makes an effort to play the ball. The NFHS said that is the right way to employ this tactic and the coaches must teach it and the players must adhere to it.

3. The only change in the position of the NFHS was a reversal of the ruling that when the coach instructed his players to foul it should be deemed intentional. That provision was eliminated.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS has merely said that fouling near the end of a game is an acceptable strategy and that the fouls aren't to automatically be deemed intentional even though they are purposely committed and done to stop the clock, as long as the player makes an effort to play the ball.

Was at a FB game last night where I thought the refs (different league than mine) did a good job. Opportunity to call Intentional Fouls was there late in the game and they opted to pass on them. Had no bearing on the results IMO.

Based on what is said by Nevada above, the highlighted part is what make me go hmmmm and where I personally struggle. Although I don't call many, I guess I call more intentional fouls than others.

Normally, for me if a player "intentionally" grabs a uniform of a player going by, or does the two-handed push to the back I will call it. But, I usually will call the "bear hug" against the player with the ball intentional as I consider it a "non-basketball play" and NOT an attempt to "play the ball." What about the off-ball "bear hug" or hold against a player without the ball, especially, as has been noted, the worst foul shooter? How can that not be intentional?