Late Game Fouling

[doubleringer]

Along the same lines, when we are in an obvious fouling situation, my crew talks about making sure we get the first foul, because if you don't get the first one, the second attempt to foul is usually going to be ugly.

[bmdwterp]

Is it legal for the coach to say "Give the Foul" or "Foul!"

[deecee]

Originally Posted by bmdwterp

Is it legal for the coach to say "Give the Foul" or "Foul!"

Yes.

If a team is fouling at the end of the game, unless its over the top, and if the kid was borderline intentional I remind them to make plays for the ball. If not then I dont need to say anything, most kids and coaches at the varsity level know this.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bmdwterp

Is it legal for the coach to say "Give the Foul" or "Foul!"

Yes.

I don't call 3-second-violations just cause the coach asks for them.

Seriously, that used to be an interpretation - thankfully, it no longer exists. Judge the play on its merits.

[btaylor64]

I have said this at least once in another thread, but I believe the "bear hug" done in the right way is perfectly fine. The fouler is just wanting you, as the official, to know that he is trying to commit a foul and sometimes, especially at the HS level, for whatever reason, alot of us don't think that repetitive touching of a player is a foul so they then go to the bear hug. If we know what the team's objective is (to foul) then any amount of contact should be deemed as such. There is no need to referee with purity here. They want a foul, so just give them one as soon as contact occurs.

After saying that though, you also have to referee the way the boss wants you to. If he says that the bear hug is intentional, then the bear hug is intentional, no IFs ANDs or BUTs about it!

I also personally don't like the terminology used for an intentional foul, but if i could understand what the NFHS was saying i could apply it. What is an "ADVANTAGEOUS POSITION" anyway. Is a kid, curled up with the ball, in any more of an "advantageous position" than the defender? just a question for thought...

[Adam]

Btaylor, you couldn't be more wrong.

1. The bear hug is a classic intentional foul.
2. I'm okay with calling a quick foul here, if the offense is letting it happen. If, however, the offense is actually playing and trying to avoid the foul, make the defense commit an actual foul. Don't reward them for sloppy play.
3. Advantageous position would be the player going for an uncontested layup who gets pushed from behind. Or a kic about to break free when he gets held by the defender behind him.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

If we know what the team's objective is (to foul) then any amount of contact should be deemed as such. There is no need to referee with purity here. They want a foul, so just give them one as soon as contact occurs.

Why does your definition of foul change in this situation? If you call a foul for "any amount of contact", aren't you directly contradicting 4-27-1? Aren't you penalizing the offense by allowing the defense to accomplish what they want (stopping the clock), without doing what they need to do, by rule, to stop the clock?

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Why does your definition of foul change in this situation? If you call a foul for "any amount of contact", aren't you directly contradicting 4-27-1? Aren't you penalizing the offense by allowing the defense to accomplish what they want (stopping the clock), without doing what they need to do, by rule, to stop the clock?

Remember, he is a pro-am guy with that rule set mentality.
They don't even have an intentional foul in the book - if you are fouling a player with the ball.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Why does your definition of foul change in this situation? If you call a foul for "any amount of contact", aren't you directly contradicting 4-27-1? Aren't you penalizing the offense by allowing the defense to accomplish what they want (stopping the clock), without doing what they need to do, by rule, to stop the clock?

If a team wants to foul, I am going to give it right away, too. Consider it preventive. The first attempt will be polite, the fourth will be the defender putting the opponent through the floor.

I don't see the bear hug as automatically intentional. If a player reaches around like that and gets just the ball, it's a held ball. Who am I to say (I know, I know) that the defender isn't reaching around for the ball?

Mostly, people should call how it's called in their area. It takes a lot to get an intentional at the end of the game in most places I've lived and this is not one place I would want to be known for being different.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

If a team wants to foul, I am going to give it right away, too. Consider it preventive. The first attempt will be polite, the fourth will be the defender putting the opponent through the floor.

While I understand what you're saying, I'm still not sure we should call things differently at this part of the game. I know the team is trying to foul, so I will be looking closely. Yes, I certainly understand the team can get frustrated if they miss the first couple of attempts, and that usually leads to harder attempts. But I've also called the intentional in this very situation, and the coach wasn't happy - with his players. I'm still in the camp where incidental contact and contact deemed to be a foul is the same at the beginning of the game as it is at the end. Why should I penalize the offense if the defense isn't quick enough to get there to foul "properly"? Didn't the offense do their job, so to speak, and build up the lead at that point in the game? Aren't they doing their job, so to speak, keeping the ball away from the team that's behind? Why should I penalize them by stopping the clock and calling slight contact that I would easily pass on early in the game?

Again, I will be watching closely; I don't want to miss contact that would otherwise normally be called.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't see the bear hug as automatically intentional. If a player reaches around like that and gets just the ball, it's a held ball. Who am I to say (I know, I know) that the defender isn't reaching around for the ball?

I actually agree with this.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Mostly, people should call how it's called in their area. It takes a lot to get an intentional at the end of the game in most places I've lived and this is not one place I would want to be known for being different.

I agree as well.

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

Along the same lines, when we are in an obvious fouling situation, my crew talks about making sure we get the first foul, because if you don't get the first one, the second attempt to foul is usually going to be ugly.

I always remember an end of the game situation where we were behind, and fouling "on purpose". My guy fouled a kid two or three times, no call, then out of frustration, pushed the kid. Intentional foul. Thanks, ref!

[mick]

Due to an end of game situation a few years back, I called a foul [on the *Stud*] that didn't need to be called. It was his 5th, and he didn't want it.
Since then, I only call real fouls.

Originally Posted by mick

Due to an end of game situation a few years back, I called a foul [on the *Stud*] that didn't need to be called. It was his 5th, and he didn't want it.
Since then, I only call real fouls.

Per NBA/NCAA Big dogs:

"You have to know TIME, SCORE & FOULS ."

"You have to have your antenna up & be mentally ready."

[Rich]

http://www.gpboa.org/Articles/Watching%20Works.pdf

The author is a friend of mine.

[mick]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

http://www.gpboa.org/Articles/Watching%20Works.pdf

The author is a friend of mine.

Good, on both counts.


[ Worked in your state [Hurley] last night and Sammy was on the mic. ]