Late Game Fouling Clarification...

[Coltdoggs]

Team is down late and it's obvious to the entire gym they are fouling to stop the clock in an effort to get the ball back. They are "wrapping up" the offensive players. Doing the "hug", if you will.

Should these be called as intentional (2 FT/ ball OOB) fouls? It's not malicious contact by any means like pushing in the back on a breakaway intentional....but it's stil an intentional foul.

Just curious as I had a sitch today where the contact was a little more excessive during this time and I did give the cross-bones.

[JugglingReferee]

Definitely an intentional foul. Wrapping your arms around the player like a hug is not playing the ball. (I read the sitch as A is hugged with two arms, not able to move on his/her own.)

I've got the cross-bones on the first one of these - that'll stop the behavoir right away.

[grunewar]

In Rec games (especially at the younger levels) I sometimes head this off by politely telling a coach as I walk by the bench to ensure his players are making an attempt to go after the ball.

Like you Colt, I find this a somewhat difficult call if its close, but do make it when it needs to be called and its obvious - ahem "hugging" or a two-handed push to the back will get it from me everytime.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Should these be called as intentional (2 FT/ ball OOB) fouls? ....but it's stil an intentional foul.

Aren't you answering your own question here?

[deecee]

in your case probably -- in most cases the first one I do warn them that they must make a play for the ball. I do this if the coach or player(s) tell me they are going to foul or if the situation is clear that they will be fouling I warn in advance.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Aren't you answering your own question here?

This is why I ask...I mean, their intent is to stop the clock...as would be if they simply created contact by making a play to steal the ball....which I'd much prefer but more often than not the O is playing keep away and the D ends up HUGGING them for the foul.

It's just that I thought the NFHS made a point on this in the past couple years with regards to these late game fouls done just to stop the clock and hope the FTs are missed so they get the ball back. I could be wrong on that statement....

I guess I'm looking for some cut and dry explanation....Should I breakout the cross bones and give 2FTs and the ball afterward on the HUGS even if the contact is not excessive...

[rngrck]

I wouldn't be calling these fouls for this type of contact unless it may cause possible injuries. Hugging an opponet is not always intentional, you have to use judgement here. I tend to see more grabbing than hugging in these situations at the end of games.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by rngrck

I wouldn't be calling these fouls for this type of contact unless it may cause possible injuries. Hugging an opponet is not always intentional, you have to use judgement here. I tend to see more grabbing than hugging in these situations at the end of games.

Right, right...you know the foul I'm speaking of though...the two handed wrap up if you will...Perhaps hug is a bit "Hack-a-Shaq-ish"

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rngrck

I wouldn't be calling these fouls for this type of contact unless it may cause possible injuries. Hugging an opponent is not always intentional, you have to use judgement here.

You also have to know the purpose and intent of the rule. Obviously you don't.

If they're not playing the ball, it's intentional. Whether the act could possibly cause an injury is not and never has been a criteria that is used to make the call.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

I guess I'm looking for some cut and dry explanation....

Sometimes you just have to officiate.

I have seen plays that could be described as "a hug" that were intnetional, and plays that could be described as "a hug" that were not.

The same with grabbing the jersey, holding away from the play, etc.

[blindzebra]

I think the more important issue is being aware of the situational foul and get the first contact in the attempt to foul.

[rngrck]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You also have to know the purpose and intent of the rule. Obviously you don't.

If they're not playing the ball, it's intentional. Whether the act could possibly cause an injury is not and never has been a criteria that is used to make the call.

If that was always the case ,you'd be calling 30 intentional fouls a game!! Fouling by the losing team at end of game is BB strategy and everyone knows it. I'm not calling intentional fouls everytime the trailing team slaps, grabs, or hugs unless its flagrant.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by rngrck

I'm not calling intentional fouls everytime the trailing team slaps, grabs, or hugs unless its flagrant.

What other rules do you ignore?

[MCJB Ump]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

What other rules do you ignore?

Agree. They are "intentonally" fouling so it IS an "intentional" foul.

Easy call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rngrck

If that was always the case ,you'd be calling 30 intentional fouls a game!! Fouling by the losing team at end of game is BB strategy and everyone knows it. I'm not calling intentional fouls everytime the trailing team slaps, grabs, or hugs unless its flagrant.

If the defense isn't playing the ball, then yes, I'm sureashell going to call an intentional foul if they slap, grab or hug somebody. Every time. That's because they're a textbook intentional foul....a no-brainer. And I don't care if I have to call 130 a game either.

I just call 'em; I don't commit 'em. And I sureashell don't worry about 'em after I call 'em.