Fouling on OOB end of game situation

[justacoach]

Could you good folks summarize for me the rulings applicable to the following end of game scenarios that may occur on sideline OOB plays?

1>Defense fouls player on court before ball is at the disposal of inbounder

2>Defense fouls inbounder prior to release

3>Defense contacts ball by reaching through the boundary plane

4> Defense fouls player on court after ball is at the disposal of inbounder but prior to release

any other possibilities you can envision?


As always, thanks for furthering my education

[BktBallRef]

1- Technical foul.

2- Intentional personal foul.

3- Technical foul

4- Personal foul, possibly intentional.

[JRutledge]

1>Defense fouls player on court before ball is at the disposal of inbounder

Technical Foul

2>Defense fouls inbounder prior to release

Intentional Foul

3>Defense contacts ball by reaching through the boundary plane

This is a Technical Foul.

4> Defense fouls player on court after ball is at the disposal of inbounder but prior to release

Just a common foul unless the team is in the bonus.

any other possibilities you can envision?

Not sure what else you could think of?

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Aug 6th, 2004 at 11:21 PM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
1- Technical foul.

2- Intentional personal foul.

3- Technical foul

4- Personal foul, possibly intentional.

Agree except #4 is always intentional if it's a "strategic" foul.

[Lotto]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Agree except #4 is always intentional if it's a "strategic" foul.

I have to disagree with this. Whether a "strategic" foul is called intentional or not depends entirely on the nature of contact. The "strategic" part shoudln't come into it at all. If you would not have called it intentional in the 1st quarter, don't call it intentional late in the 4th.

There's actually a short paragraph about this in the 2004 NCAA rulebook PoE for men, on p. 15.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Lotto

I have to disagree with this. Whether a "strategic" foul is called intentional or not depends entirely on the nature of contact. The "strategic" part shoudln't come into it at all.

Dan and I were fortunate enough to get an early preview of the NCAA tape that will be making the rounds of pre-season clinics tihs year. Hank Nicols talks about the importance of calling the intentional at the end of games. He shows examples (from the NCAA tourney, no less) where guys are not fouling hard, but are holding offensive players around the waist before the ball is released on the inbounds. His interp -- intentional.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, Lotto. I'm just pointing out that the "strategic" foul is very often intentional. The defense is intentionally fouling to keep the clock from starting, even if the contact isn't all that hard. That's an intentional, even tho you wouldn't have called that level of contact a foul in the first quarter.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by justacoach
4> Defense fouls player on court after ball is at the disposal of inbounder but prior to release

This is an "away-from-the-play" foul, if committed in the last two minutes of the 4th quarter or OT. Give any offensive player on the floor one shot, and give the offense the ball back at the spot of the original throw-in.

What? Nobody's interested in the NBA rule?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Dan and I were fortunate enough to get an early preview of the NCAA tape that will be making the rounds of pre-season clinics tihs year. Hank Nicols talks about the importance of calling the intentional at the end of games. He shows examples (from the NCAA tourney, no less) where guys are not fouling hard, but are holding offensive players around the waist before the ball is released on the inbounds. His interp -- intentional.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, Lotto. I'm just pointing out that the "strategic" foul is very often intentional. The defense is intentionally fouling to keep the clock from starting, even if the contact isn't all that hard. That's an intentional, even tho you wouldn't have called that level of contact a foul in the first quarter.

I agree with Lotto on this one . A stategic foul may or may not be intentional. The example above of a foul on the in-bounds play before the ball gets thrown in is only one of the different strategic fouls. A strategic foul is definitely not always an intentional foul, imo. You make each call on it's own merits- nothing else. If a defender puts on a good show of going for the ball, I think that Hank Nicols will have YOUR balls if you call something like that "intentional". That's not the spirit and intent of the rule. The way I understand it is that they (both NCAA & NFHS) wanna go back to the way intentionals used to be called-i.e. regular foul if you go for the ball, and intentional foul if you grab a shirt or just wrap somebody up.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
[/B]

This is an "away-from-the-play" foul, if committed in the last two minutes of the 4th quarter or OT. Give any offensive player on the floor one shot, and give the offense the ball back at the spot of the original throw-in.

What? Nobody's interested in the NBA rule? [/B][/QUOTE]I heard that that, because of the problems their players are currently having in the international games, the NBA is now seriously considering implementing "travelling" into their rules.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I agree with Lotto on this one . A stategic foul may or may not be intentional. The example above of a foul on the in-bounds play before the ball gets thrown in is only one of the different strategic fouls. A strategic foul is definitely not always an intentional foul, imo. You make each call on it's own merits- nothing else. If a defender puts on a good show of going for the ball, I think that Hank Nicols will have YOUR balls if you call something like that "intentional". That's not the spirit and intent of the rule. The way I understand it is that they (both NCAA & NFHS) wanna go back to the way intentionals used to be called-i.e. regular foul if you go for the ball, and intentional foul if you grab a shirt or just wrap somebody up.

I'm not saying *any* strategic foul is intentional, in fact I would be the first to say that strategic fouls are generally *not* intentional. One huge exception is the play we are discussing (#4 above):

A1 has the ball for a throw-in, B1 fouls A2 before the throw-in is complete (ie A1 is still holding the ball).

Maybe you can tell us why we need to consider whether B1 is "going for the ball" in this case?

Maybe you can tell us how, if B1 has his arms around A2's waist while yelling "HEY REF!!! LOOK!! LOOK! REF!!" this is anything BUT intentional?

That's all I'm saying, nothing more or less.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by JRutledge
1>Defense fouls player on court before ball is at the disposal of inbounder

Technical Foul

Just remember that the contact will be ignored unless it's intentional or flagrant. So, if it's a foul, it's an IT or an FT foul.

4> Defense fouls player on court after ball is at the disposal of inbounder but prior to release

Just a common foul unless the team is in the bonus.

Even if the team is in the bonus, it will be a common foul, unless it's intentional or flagrant, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
I'm not saying *any* strategic foul is intentional, in fact I would be the first to say that strategic fouls are generally *not* intentional. One huge exception is the play we are discussing (#4 above):

A1 has the ball for a throw-in, B1 fouls A2 before the throw-in is complete (ie A1 is still holding the ball).

Maybe you can tell us why we need to consider whether B1 is "going for the ball" in this case?

Maybe you can tell us how, if B1 has his arms around A2's waist while yelling "HEY REF!!! LOOK!! LOOK! REF!!" this is anything BUT intentional?

That's all I'm saying, nothing more or less.

That's all I was saying, too. I was talking about #4 above. You just said it better. Thanks.

[BktBallRef]

All that rheotoric and we're right back to where I started from.

4- Personal foul, possibly intentional.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
All that rheotoric and we're right back to where I started from.

4- Personal foul, possibly intentional.

Let's face it -- you're good!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

That's all I was saying, too. I was talking about #4 above. You just said it better. Thanks.

How's the wheel?