Angry Coach at Halftime

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This is the only argument I can appreciate for definitively not calling the T. However, we all know there are some coaches with distinctive enough voices that make hearing just as good as seeing.

Preacher, have you ever called a T on a coach for a comment he made to you while he was standing directly behind you?

Snaq

I appreciate you get my point.

Fortunately, in 27 years I have not had this happen. The difference is on the court we do have visual contact and are visible to everyone in the gym. And secondly the Voice right behind me is more recognizable or identifiable than the sound of a vioce coming through 12 inch concrete walls or even a closed door.

Side note: When I learned to become a pilot I had my peripheral vision evaluated. The doctor was amazed that it exteded so far behind me. He said it was almost like having eyes in the back of my head.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Great thread.

I'm trying to relate it to my sport, baseball - but its near impossible since baseball has no intermission.

Anyways, thought I would throw a thought out there.

What about ignoring it during the half, and then getting the guy the first time he says ANYTHING to you in the 2nd half. If you can slip in a "That's enough" beforehand, great, if not, don't sweat it.

I am envisioning coming back into a gym, and nobody there (including those that are on your side, admins and scorekeepers) knowing what happened in the locker room. Our job is to a) do our job and b) keep a good perception in doing that job.

You're going to catch ALOT of **** for directly dealing with this locker room stuff during that game, and maybe even from assignors in the future.

I don't like baiting, but sometimes in baseball anyways, my mind is made up about a guy, and I want to get rid of him or at least tell him "that's enough," but I can't do it at that time because of other circumstances (in this case, it could be the locker room).

So first chance you do get, maybe an throw-in in front of his bench, give him a "Coach, I didn't make out all of that half-time speech? Care to repeat?" If he comes back with a yes, you got him. Comes back with a no, give him a "Guess I'll have to yell through the showers at you after the game." Say something like that, and I can't imagine any coach keeping his mouth shut. Bam, got him.

And its out in the open, we got a T, 2,000 people saw him lose it, and only 2 people know what was really said, you and him.

Not baiting, just slight manipulation to get what you want without the negative consequences of leaving him in the locker room at half. Just a thought.

To bait or not to bait? that is the question. No, better just use slight manipulation.

My dictionary defines manipulation as: "management with use of unfair, scheming, or underhanded methods esp. for ones own advantage.

FYI...unfair, scheming, and underhanded are not complimentary words used to describe acceptable behavior.

I have been pondering this last sentence. It's a good thing some of us are anonymous on this board as your words reek of unethical behavior in (forgive the analogy) biblical proportions.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm trying to see how this is not baiting. Especially considering this.

IMO, it's not baiting because you are still giving him choices. If you want to give a T for the halftime stuff, I guarantee all hell will break loose if you do it coming out of the half. You may say "not my problem, his actions need punishment." I say its a battle you can't win, pick it else where. Like on something you can win... right out in the open court.

He'll flip, bench will flip, hell home scorer might flip. Then whatda ya got? A situation you ain't ever fixing for the last 16.

Hell, you could make an argument that doing it behind the scenes is baiting another 5 T's.

I'd penalize him too, and him and me would know its about what he did at halftime, everyone else will think he must have said a magic word into my ear. You may say that he'll cry foul about it, but I bet that he doesn't want his AD to know what he did back there, so he'll probably bite his tongue. And the cosmic forces realign, Team B gets their two shots.

It's not perfect, and I have some problems with it, but it's the best way IMO. Any other way produces an outcome I don't want.

If he did it running off the court into half, we'd have another story.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

IMO, it's not baiting because you are still giving him choices. If you want to give a T for the halftime stuff, I guarantee all hell will break loose if you do it coming out of the half. You may say "not my problem, his actions need punishment." I say its a battle you can't win, pick it else where. Like on something you can win... right out in the open court.

He'll flip, bench will flip, hell home scorer might flip. Then whatda ya got? A situation you ain't ever fixing for the last 16.

Hell, you could make an argument that doing it behind the scenes is baiting another 5 T's.

I'd penalize him too, and him and me would know its about what he did at halftime, everyone else will think he must have said a magic word into my ear. You may say that he'll cry foul about it, but I bet that he doesn't want his AD to know what he did back there, so he'll probably bite his tongue. And the cosmic forces realign, Team B gets their two shots.

It's not perfect, and I have some problems with it, but it's the best way IMO. Any other way produces an outcome I don't want.

If he did it running off the court into half, we'd have another story.

You job as an official is to react to what happens and apply the rules. That alone determines the outcome of the game. It is not up to you to orchestrate the outcome so it fits what you want. Unethical.

Get it through your head that baiting and manipulating are the same thing and both are unethical methods for an official to use.

If I were your partner in any game where you used the kind of game management you described causing a coach's Tor ejection my letter to the assigner/state office would be to recommend removal of your officiating permit.

How many times do I have to say unethical.

[JRutledge]

All these comments that we must give a T, is based on only personal interpretations. And in a situation like this, I want a little more than personal interpretations. When I am unclear about a rule, I do not ask people on a discussion board for guidance if I cannot find one in some concrete literature. Honestly for someone to suggest that we must give a T is only using their personal interpretation of the situation and is not basing it on anything that has been addressed the National Federation or any state organization (and certainly not in my state). This is why the NF tells people to refer to their state organizations for these kinds of information.

Also for the record, filing a report is more than an easy way out. Unlike some people here, filing a report puts your name and reputation on the line when you file such a report. And you are also saying that the action warrants more than just an action in a game. In my state filing a "Special Report" has to be answered to by the coach (in this case) and to more people than just the IHSA. I have filed reports only to have Athletic Directors or Principals call me directly for follow up information and in one case I am convinced this lead to the firing of a coach because the things were brought to light that the AD or Principal never witnessed. Sometimes the people that hire coaches are not aware of certain behavior that they might feel is totally unacceptable. There are administrators that believe strongly that these games are an extension of the classroom and want to know when their coaches are not acting accordingly. The fans and other observers do not know why there is a Technical Foul given and all giving one might do is prove how you interpret the rules. If you write a report, then the right people know of the situation and can take action if they see fit. I compare this situations as going to a store manager and complaining about a situation in a store, rather than putting your complaining in writing to the corporate office. I can tell you the writing to the corporate office is taken a little more seriously than the person just talking to a store manager that may never be forgotten.

I also feel that people that are always trying to make moral evaluations on what we penalize in a game are really misguided and flat out stupid. I have never made a judgment in a basketball game where morals played much of a role. I have yet to see a Technical Foul or not giving a Technical Foul being seen as a sin under my religious values. Then again, it is always been just a game to me.

Peace

[beachbum]

I am a newer guy, but my interpretation of the rules is that we react and administer prenatys to actions that are directed at us IN PERSON. confrontations in hallways during half time or on the court would be delt with.

Having an obviously irate coach, yelling at his players at half time with words that berate officials is not direct confrontation. this may just be his way of motivating the players, be it good or bad. Some coaches like to play up that everyone is "against us", so get out there and battle back".

I would be cognizant of his demeanor as we begin play for the second half. does he seem calm and into coaching his team? Is he questioning officials? Is he confrontational with his every movement?

If everything is copasetic, I would just do my job and move on. If, howerver, he starts smarting off, i would "T" him.

We are suppose to be the voice of reason.

then I would tell the assignor of the problem with the walls, and let them deal with a change.

[kgeorge0263]

I have enjoyed all the posts for this discussion and know that sometimes these can get a little heated. Posting online vs. talking in person gives some opportunities to write things that would not be said in person when directed at others.

I think this topic is relevant in a situation that can happen to all of us. Each person has their opinions on things that have happened to them and I am glad to read these in case it ever happens to me or the crew I am working with.

I personally would not give a "T" in this situation, but would contact the assigner regarding these comments.

I hope everyone a great new year and a great season!

-KG

[Adam]

Originally Posted by beachbum

I am a newer guy, but my interpretation of the rules is that we react and administer prenatys to actions that are directed at us IN PERSON. confrontations in hallways during half time or on the court would be delt with.

Having an obviously irate coach, yelling at his players at half time with words that berate officials is not direct confrontation. this may just be his way of motivating the players, be it good or bad. Some coaches like to play up that everyone is "against us", so get out there and battle back".

I still haven't taken a solid position on whether I'd call the T. It really depends on what was said, exactly.

However, I need to disabuse you of this notion. A coach's comments do not have to be directed to you in order to call a T. If he said the same thing to his players in the huddle, it's a flagrant T.
The fact is, the OP was standing in the coach's office. The coach knows very well what can be heard in his own office from the locker room he's standing in.

And there's nothing that says comments have to be done in person. Preacher Long's comments on knowing positively that it's the coach aside, I see nothing in the rules that require it.

I will add, if you call the T, you better truly know who said it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

IMO, it's not baiting because you are still giving him choices. If you want to give a T for the halftime stuff, I guarantee all hell will break loose if you do it coming out of the half. You may say "not my problem, his actions need punishment." I say its a battle you can't win, pick it else where. Like on something you can win... right out in the open court.

He'll flip, bench will flip, hell home scorer might flip. Then whatda ya got? A situation you ain't ever fixing for the last 16.

He won't flip, he'll be in the locker room. If I call this T, it's gonna be flagrant given the profanity and accusations.

And yes, it is baiting. Dancing around it by calling it something else is just silly. I'm with the Preacher on this one. Give him a short leash if you want, but don't go baiting him into it. If you do as your original post says, you'll have to answer for it or lie about it when the coach reports your comments to the state, your assigner, or both.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Hell, you could make an argument that doing it behind the scenes is baiting another 5 T's.

Only if you want to make the argument that calling a deserved T baits a coach into another one. As I said, he won't get any more in my game.

He'd walk out to the court with his team, and I'd inform him, the bench, and the other coach that we're calling a flagrant Technical foul on him. He's ejected.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I'd penalize him too, and him and me would know its about what he did at halftime, everyone else will think he must have said a magic word into my ear. You may say that he'll cry foul about it, but I bet that he doesn't want his AD to know what he did back there, so he'll probably bite his tongue. And the cosmic forces realign, Team B gets their two shots.

It's not perfect, and I have some problems with it, but it's the best way IMO. Any other way produces an outcome I don't want.

If he did it running off the court into half, we'd have another story.

frankly, your way produces an outcome I don't want. Either call the T or don't, but don't bait him into a different one.

Hell, if you want, call the T after the 2nd half starts and flat out tell him, "It's for what you said at half time."

[LeeBallanfant]

If this issue is so important to a referee, why not just knock on the door and ask the coach "Are those remarks, (and the official would repeat them), addressed at us?"

If he says yes, then toss him. If he says no, then report to Assignor and/or AD what happened and that something should be done about the approximity of the dressing room.

[LeeBallanfant]

[QUOTE=Ch1town;562512]ART.2...The official's jurisdiction, prior to the game, begins when they arrive on the floor. The official's arrival on the floor shall be at least 15 minutes before the scheduled starting time of the game.QUOTE]

Similar situation, you are in dressing room before game starts, coach in adjoining one, and coach finds out name of officials and starts shouting in his locker room "These are the same F******** A**holes we had last month."

Then you go up to court and coach says "Hi Guys"

What are you going to do now?

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

What are you going to do now?

Introduce myself and my partners and then referee the game. How about you?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

Similar situation, you are in dressing room before game starts, coach in adjoining one, and coach finds out name of officials and starts shouting in his locker room "These are the same F******** A**holes we had last month."

Then you go up to court and coach says "Hi Guys"

What are you going to do now?

Originally Posted by grunewar

Introduce myself and my partners and then referee the game. How about you?

Yup. My jurisdiction doesn't start until we get onto the court.

Same thing I'd do if he went into the tirade in the locker room after the game. I'll file a report, but that'll be it on this sitch.

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

Similar situation, you are in dressing room before game starts, coach in adjoining one, and coach finds out name of officials and starts shouting in his locker room "These are the same F******** A**holes we had last month."

Then you go up to court and coach says "Hi Guys"

What are you going to do now?

By rule, there's absolutely nothing we can do in your situation. But the leash is short plus coach is wearing a choker

I posted the following because it seemed as though some of us were unsure of when our jurisdiction was in effect.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

ART.2...The official's jurisdiction, prior to the game, begins when they arrive on the floor. The official's arrival on the floor shall be at least 15 minutes before the scheduled starting time of the game.

ART.3...The official's jurisdiction extends through periods when the game may be momentarily stopped for any reason.

ART.4...The jurisdiction of the officials' is terminated and the final score has been approved when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area.

[LeeBallanfant]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Introduce myself and my partners and then referee the game. How about you?

Same here and if he showed us complete respect the whole game I would not even report the incident.