Angry Coach at Halftime

[TussAgee11]

Great thread.

I'm trying to relate it to my sport, baseball - but its near impossible since baseball has no intermission.

Anyways, thought I would throw a thought out there.

What about ignoring it during the half, and then getting the guy the first time he says ANYTHING to you in the 2nd half. If you can slip in a "That's enough" beforehand, great, if not, don't sweat it.

I am envisioning coming back into a gym, and nobody there (including those that are on your side, admins and scorekeepers) knowing what happened in the locker room. Our job is to a) do our job and b) keep a good perception in doing that job.

You're going to catch ALOT of **** for directly dealing with this locker room stuff during that game, and maybe even from assignors in the future.

I don't like baiting, but sometimes in baseball anyways, my mind is made up about a guy, and I want to get rid of him or at least tell him "that's enough," but I can't do it at that time because of other circumstances (in this case, it could be the locker room).

So first chance you do get, maybe an throw-in in front of his bench, give him a "Coach, I didn't make out all of that half-time speech? Care to repeat?" If he comes back with a yes, you got him. Comes back with a no, give him a "Guess I'll have to yell through the showers at you after the game." Say something like that, and I can't imagine any coach keeping his mouth shut. Bam, got him.

And its out in the open, we got a T, 2,000 people saw him lose it, and only 2 people know what was really said, you and him.

Not baiting, just slight manipulation to get what you want without the negative consequences of leaving him in the locker room at half. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Great thread.

It's about to get even better

I predict 13 pgs.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Great thread.

I'm trying to relate it to my sport, baseball - but its near impossible since baseball has no intermission.

Anyways, thought I would throw a thought out there.

What about ignoring it during the half, and then getting the guy the first time he says ANYTHING to you in the 2nd half. If you can slip in a "That's enough" beforehand, great, if not, don't sweat it.

I am envisioning coming back into a gym, and nobody there (including those that are on your side, admins and scorekeepers) knowing what happened in the locker room. Our job is to a) do our job and b) keep a good perception in doing that job.

You're going to catch ALOT of **** for directly dealing with this locker room stuff during that game, and maybe even from assignors in the future.

I don't like baiting, but sometimes in baseball anyways, my mind is made up about a guy, and I want to get rid of him or at least tell him "that's enough," but I can't do it at that time because of other circumstances (in this case, it could be the locker room).

So first chance you do get, maybe an throw-in in front of his bench, give him a "Coach, I didn't make out all of that half-time speech? Care to repeat?" If he comes back with a yes, you got him. Comes back with a no, give him a "Guess I'll have to yell through the showers at you after the game." Say something like that, and I can't imagine any coach keeping his mouth shut. Bam, got him.

And its out in the open, we got a T, 2,000 people saw him lose it, and only 2 people know what was really said, you and him.

Not baiting, just slight manipulation to get what you want without the negative consequences of leaving him in the locker room at half. Just a thought.

Wow, I disagree with this post on every possible level.
The poster shies away from dealing with the unsporting conduct because he is afraid of taking some heat for do so, but then actually advocates trying to bait and manipulate the coach into a technical foul later in the game in order to make up for it.
Why not take the high road and conduct yourself in an upstanding manner and take care of business with the coach. You'll certainly get less grief for trying to deal with this the right way than by attempting some underhanded method.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Wow, I disagree with this post on every possible level.
The poster shies away from dealing with the unsporting conduct because he is afraid of taking some heat for do so, but then actually advocates trying to bait and manipulate the coach into a technical foul later in the game in order to make up for it.
Why not take the high road and conduct yourself in an upstanding manner and take care of business with the coach. You'll certainly get less grief for trying to deal with this the right way than by attempting some underhanded method.

Listen, maybe in basketball you guys want to handle it. My comments were preceeded by my own baseball background, although I do officiate basketball as well.

As a previous poster said, don't go looking for boogers, they will only lead to bad situations that the best of game management can not fix.

My philosophy was punishing the coach for his actions in a different way, not really baiting him in to do something else. Get him for anything you want in the first 2 mins of the 3Q, but I can't imagine how shooting 2 before the half even starts ends up well.

Its not being a namby pamby, it's dealing with it in a different way. I'll leave the thread on the note, since as I said, my experience on the sport level is baseball, not as much basketball, but thought I would throw in general game management philosophy.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

So first chance you do get, maybe an throw-in in front of his bench, give him a "Coach, I didn't make out all of that half-time speech? Care to repeat?" If he comes back with a yes, you got him. Comes back with a no, give him a "Guess I'll have to yell through the showers at you after the game." Say something like that, and I can't imagine any coach keeping his mouth shut. Bam, got him.

And its out in the open, we got a T, 2,000 people saw him lose it, and only 2 people know what was really said, you and him.Not baiting, just slight manipulation to get what you want without the negative consequences of leaving him in the locker room at half. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

My philosophy was punishing the coach for his actions in a different way, not really baiting him in to do something else. Get him for anything you want in the first 2 mins of the 3Q, but I can't imagine how shooting 2 before the half even starts ends up well.

I'm trying to see how this is not baiting. Especially considering this.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm trying to see how this is not baiting. Especially considering this.

IMO, it's not baiting because you are still giving him choices. If you want to give a T for the halftime stuff, I guarantee all hell will break loose if you do it coming out of the half. You may say "not my problem, his actions need punishment." I say its a battle you can't win, pick it else where. Like on something you can win... right out in the open court.

He'll flip, bench will flip, hell home scorer might flip. Then whatda ya got? A situation you ain't ever fixing for the last 16.

Hell, you could make an argument that doing it behind the scenes is baiting another 5 T's.

I'd penalize him too, and him and me would know its about what he did at halftime, everyone else will think he must have said a magic word into my ear. You may say that he'll cry foul about it, but I bet that he doesn't want his AD to know what he did back there, so he'll probably bite his tongue. And the cosmic forces realign, Team B gets their two shots.

It's not perfect, and I have some problems with it, but it's the best way IMO. Any other way produces an outcome I don't want.

If he did it running off the court into half, we'd have another story.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

IMO, it's not baiting because you are still giving him choices. If you want to give a T for the halftime stuff, I guarantee all hell will break loose if you do it coming out of the half. You may say "not my problem, his actions need punishment." I say its a battle you can't win, pick it else where. Like on something you can win... right out in the open court.

He'll flip, bench will flip, hell home scorer might flip. Then whatda ya got? A situation you ain't ever fixing for the last 16.

Hell, you could make an argument that doing it behind the scenes is baiting another 5 T's.

I'd penalize him too, and him and me would know its about what he did at halftime, everyone else will think he must have said a magic word into my ear. You may say that he'll cry foul about it, but I bet that he doesn't want his AD to know what he did back there, so he'll probably bite his tongue. And the cosmic forces realign, Team B gets their two shots.

It's not perfect, and I have some problems with it, but it's the best way IMO. Any other way produces an outcome I don't want.

If he did it running off the court into half, we'd have another story.

You job as an official is to react to what happens and apply the rules. That alone determines the outcome of the game. It is not up to you to orchestrate the outcome so it fits what you want. Unethical.

Get it through your head that baiting and manipulating are the same thing and both are unethical methods for an official to use.

If I were your partner in any game where you used the kind of game management you described causing a coach's Tor ejection my letter to the assigner/state office would be to recommend removal of your officiating permit.

How many times do I have to say unethical.

[JRutledge]

All these comments that we must give a T, is based on only personal interpretations. And in a situation like this, I want a little more than personal interpretations. When I am unclear about a rule, I do not ask people on a discussion board for guidance if I cannot find one in some concrete literature. Honestly for someone to suggest that we must give a T is only using their personal interpretation of the situation and is not basing it on anything that has been addressed the National Federation or any state organization (and certainly not in my state). This is why the NF tells people to refer to their state organizations for these kinds of information.

Also for the record, filing a report is more than an easy way out. Unlike some people here, filing a report puts your name and reputation on the line when you file such a report. And you are also saying that the action warrants more than just an action in a game. In my state filing a "Special Report" has to be answered to by the coach (in this case) and to more people than just the IHSA. I have filed reports only to have Athletic Directors or Principals call me directly for follow up information and in one case I am convinced this lead to the firing of a coach because the things were brought to light that the AD or Principal never witnessed. Sometimes the people that hire coaches are not aware of certain behavior that they might feel is totally unacceptable. There are administrators that believe strongly that these games are an extension of the classroom and want to know when their coaches are not acting accordingly. The fans and other observers do not know why there is a Technical Foul given and all giving one might do is prove how you interpret the rules. If you write a report, then the right people know of the situation and can take action if they see fit. I compare this situations as going to a store manager and complaining about a situation in a store, rather than putting your complaining in writing to the corporate office. I can tell you the writing to the corporate office is taken a little more seriously than the person just talking to a store manager that may never be forgotten.

I also feel that people that are always trying to make moral evaluations on what we penalize in a game are really misguided and flat out stupid. I have never made a judgment in a basketball game where morals played much of a role. I have yet to see a Technical Foul or not giving a Technical Foul being seen as a sin under my religious values. Then again, it is always been just a game to me.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

IMO, it's not baiting because you are still giving him choices. If you want to give a T for the halftime stuff, I guarantee all hell will break loose if you do it coming out of the half. You may say "not my problem, his actions need punishment." I say its a battle you can't win, pick it else where. Like on something you can win... right out in the open court.

He'll flip, bench will flip, hell home scorer might flip. Then whatda ya got? A situation you ain't ever fixing for the last 16.

He won't flip, he'll be in the locker room. If I call this T, it's gonna be flagrant given the profanity and accusations.

And yes, it is baiting. Dancing around it by calling it something else is just silly. I'm with the Preacher on this one. Give him a short leash if you want, but don't go baiting him into it. If you do as your original post says, you'll have to answer for it or lie about it when the coach reports your comments to the state, your assigner, or both.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Hell, you could make an argument that doing it behind the scenes is baiting another 5 T's.

Only if you want to make the argument that calling a deserved T baits a coach into another one. As I said, he won't get any more in my game.

He'd walk out to the court with his team, and I'd inform him, the bench, and the other coach that we're calling a flagrant Technical foul on him. He's ejected.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I'd penalize him too, and him and me would know its about what he did at halftime, everyone else will think he must have said a magic word into my ear. You may say that he'll cry foul about it, but I bet that he doesn't want his AD to know what he did back there, so he'll probably bite his tongue. And the cosmic forces realign, Team B gets their two shots.

It's not perfect, and I have some problems with it, but it's the best way IMO. Any other way produces an outcome I don't want.

If he did it running off the court into half, we'd have another story.

frankly, your way produces an outcome I don't want. Either call the T or don't, but don't bait him into a different one.

Hell, if you want, call the T after the 2nd half starts and flat out tell him, "It's for what you said at half time."

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Great thread.

I'm trying to relate it to my sport, baseball - but its near impossible since baseball has no intermission.

Anyways, thought I would throw a thought out there.

What about ignoring it during the half, and then getting the guy the first time he says ANYTHING to you in the 2nd half. If you can slip in a "That's enough" beforehand, great, if not, don't sweat it.

I am envisioning coming back into a gym, and nobody there (including those that are on your side, admins and scorekeepers) knowing what happened in the locker room. Our job is to a) do our job and b) keep a good perception in doing that job.

You're going to catch ALOT of **** for directly dealing with this locker room stuff during that game, and maybe even from assignors in the future.

I don't like baiting, but sometimes in baseball anyways, my mind is made up about a guy, and I want to get rid of him or at least tell him "that's enough," but I can't do it at that time because of other circumstances (in this case, it could be the locker room).

So first chance you do get, maybe an throw-in in front of his bench, give him a "Coach, I didn't make out all of that half-time speech? Care to repeat?" If he comes back with a yes, you got him. Comes back with a no, give him a "Guess I'll have to yell through the showers at you after the game." Say something like that, and I can't imagine any coach keeping his mouth shut. Bam, got him.

And its out in the open, we got a T, 2,000 people saw him lose it, and only 2 people know what was really said, you and him.

Not baiting, just slight manipulation to get what you want without the negative consequences of leaving him in the locker room at half. Just a thought.

To bait or not to bait? that is the question. No, better just use slight manipulation.

My dictionary defines manipulation as: "management with use of unfair, scheming, or underhanded methods esp. for ones own advantage.

FYI...unfair, scheming, and underhanded are not complimentary words used to describe acceptable behavior.

I have been pondering this last sentence. It's a good thing some of us are anonymous on this board as your words reek of unethical behavior in (forgive the analogy) biblical proportions.