Call Consistency as a Crew

[cewingate]

I just completed my first year of high school basketball. This summer I attended two officiating camps (IAABO in Greely, CO and Dave Hall's camp at Colorado State University). I had a conversation with one of our board members and was told that I would be considered for a varsity schedule based on my performance during summer league tournaments and officiating camps.

I was selected to work games at a varsity girls tournament and each day I was paired with veteran varsity officials in our association. One things that I noticed is that on drives to the basket and blocked shots in the free throw lane the veteran officials always called a foul on the defender. It did not matter if the defender had obtained LGP any body contact was always determined to be the fault of the defender. When I had the drive to the basket in my PCA if the defender established/maintained LGP and there was contact I either made no call or if the contact displaced the defender I called a player control foul. This inconsistency as a crew made my first two days officiating this tournament frustrating and confusing. I even had a coach complain about why the calls were not consistent on each end. I tried to pregame this with partners but it did not seem to work.

At camp I received a great deal of praise for refereeing the defense and my call selection/judgement relating to fouls. I come back and I work with officials that call the game in a different way than I was taught. Any feedback on how to work through is would be helpful.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by cewingate

I just completed my first year of high school basketball. This summer I attended two officiating camps (IAABO in Greely, CO and Dave Hall's camp at Colorado State University). I had a conversation with one of our board members and was told that I would be considered for a varsity schedule based on my performance during summer league tournaments and officiating camps.

I was selected to work games at a varsity girls tournament and each day I was paired with veteran varsity officials in our association. One things that I noticed is that on drives to the basket and blocked shots in the free throw lane the veteran officials always called a foul on the defender. It did not matter if the defender had obtained LGP any body contact was always determined to be the fault of the defender. When I had the drive to the basket in my PCA if the defender established/maintained LGP and there was contact I either made no call or if the contact displaced the defender I called a player control foul. This inconsistency as a crew made my first two days officiating this tournament frustrating and confusing. I even had a coach complain about why the calls were not consistent on each end. I tried to pregame this with partners but it did not seem to work.

At camp I received a great deal of praise for refereeing the defense and my call selection/judgement relating to fouls. I come back and I work with officials that call the game in a different way than I was taught. Any feedback on how to work through is would be helpful.

Wow. You have got to be kidding. You list something you think is wrong with no specific information as to why you have come to that determination. Rather you came in telling us how good things are for you. By the way, I know Dave Hall, I am very familiar with Denver area and Colorado officiating, I doubt that you will jump from first year to varsity schedule referee (HS level, not wreck league). There would have to be a mass exodus by the officials.

So I will make the determination you are just trying to stir the pot. Enjoy.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by cewingate

I just completed my first year of high school basketball. This summer I attended two officiating camps (IAABO in Greely, CO and Dave Hall's camp at Colorado State University). I had a conversation with one of our board members and was told that I would be considered for a varsity schedule based on my performance during summer league tournaments and officiating camps.

I was selected to work games at a varsity girls tournament and each day I was paired with veteran varsity officials in our association. One things that I noticed is that on drives to the basket and blocked shots in the free throw lane the veteran officials always called a foul on the defender. It did not matter if the defender had obtained LGP any body contact was always determined to be the fault of the defender. When I had the drive to the basket in my PCA if the defender established/maintained LGP and there was contact I either made no call or if the contact displaced the defender I called a player control foul. This inconsistency as a crew made my first two days officiating this tournament frustrating and confusing. I even had a coach complain about why the calls were not consistent on each end. I tried to pregame this with partners but it did not seem to work.

At camp I received a great deal of praise for refereeing the defense and my call selection/judgement relating to fouls. I come back and I work with officials that call the game in a different way than I was taught. Any feedback on how to work through is would be helpful.

cewingate:

I agree with ICallFouls post see #2 above). Also, as you gain more experience, you will find that the vast majority of block/charge calls are charge. You are correct, referee the defense, and you will see how right I am.

MTD, Sr.

Hold on now, I see the OPs legitimate question... How to deal with inconsistent block/charge calls by him (young official) vs. veterans.

Originally Posted by cewingate

One things that I noticed is that on drives to the basket and blocked shots in the free throw lane the veteran officials always called a foul on the defender. It did not matter if the defender had obtained LGP any body contact was always determined to be the fault of the defender. When I had the drive to the basket in my PCA if the defender established/maintained LGP and there was contact I either made no call or if the contact displaced the defender I called a player control foul.:

Although I dont agree with the OPs questioning of the vets judgement on a public forum.

I wouldn't change my CC to match their "alleged" ICC for the sake of consistency.

Instead you should ask them "what they saw" on the play in question. Then you let them know what you think you saw, so they can ask "why are looking in my area" but that's another story.

I believe officials who camp vs. those who don't will have many inconsistencies throughout the course of a game just because they have a different point of reference.

When you're the new guy it can be tough working with vets, you don't want to step on their toes over fouls/violations because you want to be accepted by them. After all they have the credibility that you desire!

The best way to work out inconsistencies is to communicate as a crew, IMO.

Originally Posted by cewingate

At camp I received a great deal of praise for refereeing the defense and my call selection/judgement relating to fouls.

Food for thought:
We shouldn't go to camp to be told how good we are. We should be going to be told what we can do to become better. After all, any idiot can blow a whistle & call fouls/violations. What did Mr. Hall say about the things that make officials great compared to good? ie. your positioning (running to close down at lead, stepping down at the slot, adjustments, the 3 immediates) rules knowledge, mechanics, etc? If all you got was praise then you wasted your time & money...

Originally Posted by cewingate

I come back and I work with officials that call the game in a different way than I was taught. Any feedback on how to work through is would be helpful.

Don't be the guy who goes to camp & comes back next season a know-it-all. It is ultimately YOUR responsibility to educate those who didn't attend camp NOT frown upon them. Maybe I'm wrong but I sense a little "my sh1t don't stink, what's wrong with these old guys" attitude from your comments. That will end a career before it takes off.
Be humble!
Find a mentor!
Be a mentor!

Most of all good luck this season!!

[JRutledge]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make or what you are asking. You are using one anecdotal example as a reference for everything that is about consistency.

All I can tell you is keep working and maybe one of these days you will realize what is being called. I am really not sure what consistency has to do with this thread. Consistency does not mean call the same thing on both ends, just because.

Peace

[Odd Duck]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Consistency does not mean call the same thing on both ends, just because.

I agree with the "just because" part but in my opinion consistency as a crew means calling the same thing on both ends. If two officials in a three-official crew think incidental contact has one definition and the third thinks it is another, someone needs to adjust. Face it, at some point during the game each official is going to be in all three positions. It is unfair to your partners and the players if you are letting go contact that the other two are calling. And it will probably make for a very long game if you cannot get on the same page.

That is one of the hardest things for me to nail. It is getting easier as if finally dawn on me that a play originating in my primary (headed to a partner's primary) when my partner is calling a foul and we don't have a double whistle that is a sign we need to discuss the play as we may have different definitions of a foul.

[Mwanr1]

Easy fellas - he's speaking from his heart and sharing his experience with us from camp. I don't sense any cockiness from his OP. He's simply frustrated with not being "LIKE-MINDED" with his crews and excited about the positive feedback from the clinicians. He's venting why his calls and views of the game are different than the veteran officials.

CEW: without seeing the actual play, based on your description, none of us here can help explain why the calls were made and why the game is called inconsistently. Bare with it and don't question on whether the calls that the veteran officials made were right or wrong. Sometimes we need to make "management calls." These are usually calls veteran officials make to restore the game and keep the games flowing. I say veteran officials usually make them because they're not afraid to call them.

My advise is to ask a lot of questions and listen to them. Whatever their responds or comments may be, be humble and thankful. You don't always have to agree with them, but never do the "BUT YEAH" because if you already pre-determine the outcome then what's the point in asking.

Here's one point I want to bring out: I find that younger officials (age-wise) are more incline to not call fouls and let a lot more go. Younger officials are also more tolerant to unacceptable behaviors and non-basketball plays. Perhaps it just that the game has changed over the past decades. Any thoughts on this?

[Mwanr1]

Originally Posted by Odd Duck

I agree with the "just because" part but in my opinion consistency as a crew means calling the same thing on both ends.

Or not calling it on both ends!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Easy fellas - he's speaking from his heart and sharing his experience with us from camp. I don't sense any cockiness from his OP. He's simply frustrated with not being "LIKE-MINDED" with his crews and excited about the positive feedback from the clinicians. He's venting why his calls and views of the game are different than the veteran officials.

I did not respond because of his attitude. I responded because it was unclear to me what point he was trying to make or what he was asking. It is fine with me if he is venting, but that does not mean his venting was justified or based on something real.

Also unless I miss something, it is very hard to call things on both ends when teams do not have the same talent or play the same exact style offensively and defensively. If you ask me we worry too much about "consistency" in ways that there is not an opportunity to really have consistency.

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Here's one point I want to bring out: I find that younger officials (age-wise) are more incline to not call fouls and let a lot more go. Younger officials are also more tolerant to unacceptable behaviors and non-basketball plays. Perhaps it just that the game has changed over the past decades. Any thoughts on this?

I completely disagree if you are only using age. I see a lot of officials with less experience who do not know what to call and not what to call. Age has little or nothing to do with it because they have yet to understand the game from the officiating perspective. Most of the newer officials I have seen in the last 10 years have been older in age (older than me as an example) and I see many of those officials not blow their whistle on just about every aspect of the game unless it is so obvious that even the janitor thinks the whistle should be blown. And I certainly do not see a lot of newer officials calling off-ball or calling proper loose ball activity when a veteran would make such a call.

Peace

[Mwanr1]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

cewingate:

I agree with ICallFouls post see #2 above). you will find that the vast majority of block/charge calls are charge. MTD, Sr.

I disagree with the above statement. I find that more often it is a block than a charge.

A philosophy I picked up from a veteran D1 official is that if both players are going into each other, as shown here: i -> <- i, then we have a block.

If it is i<-i and in result to this: \<-\, then it's a charge.

The key is to referee the defense. Pick up the secondary defender IMMEDIATELY. If I missed the secondary defender and I have to guess, I'm going to be wrong.

[Adam]

As a general rule, I've seen a trend as officials develop; I've seen it in myself as well.

1. New officials unsure what to call, not blowing their whistle.
2. Start seeing plays better, start calling everything.
3. Realize not all contact is a foul, start looking for advantage and end up letting too much go.
4. Judgment improves, and they get closer to reaching a proper balance.

The length of time through each stage varies, obviously. Also, obviously, the off-ball awareness develops independently of (but similar to) those four stages.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

As a general rule, I've seen a trend as officials develop; I've seen it in myself as well.

1. New officials unsure what to call, not blowing their whistle.
2. Start seeing plays better, start calling everything.
3. Realize not all contact is a foul, start looking for advantage and end up letting too much go.
4. Judgment improves, and they get closer to reaching a proper balance.

The length of time through each stage varies, obviously. Also, obviously, the off-ball awareness develops independently of (but similar to) those four stages.

So, from the norm, something like this:

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by cewingate

I was selected to work games at a varsity girls tournament....

No disrespect to girls basketball but I rarely see a girl obtain LGP and take a charge. They simply don't do it.

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

I disagree with the above statement. I find that more often it is a block than a charge.

Something you may not be aware of is that MTD mistakenly thinks that a defender can move in front of an airborne shooter after he/she has left the floor and get a player control foul. He doesn't understand how the concept of LGP works, so he's calling PC fouls on plays that are blocks.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

I disagree with the above statement. I find that more often it is a block than a charge.

A philosophy I picked up from a veteran D1 official is that if both players are going into each other, as shown here: i -> <- i, then we have a block.

If it is i<-i and in result to this: \<-\, then it's a charge.

The key is to referee the defense. Pick up the secondary defender IMMEDIATELY. If I missed the secondary defender and I have to guess, I'm going to be wrong.

Mwanr1:

The red highlighted quote of yours is not a philosophy, it is the definition of guarding and screening when they are properly applied. AND, if one applies the definition of guarding and screening correctly you will get it correct 99.999,999,999% of the time.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
As a general rule, I've seen a trend as officials develop; I've seen it in myself as well.

1. New officials unsure what to call, not blowing their whistle.
2. Start seeing plays better, start calling everything.
3. Realize not all contact is a foul, start looking for advantage and end up letting too much go.
4. Judgment improves, and they get closer to reaching a proper balance.

The length of time through each stage varies, obviously. Also, obviously, the off-ball awareness develops independently of (but similar to) those four stages.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

So, from the norm, something like this:

I completely agree with the four stages of development outlined by Snaqs. I also thank Juggs for his wonderful graphical representation of the process.