Some help. AUU tourney situation

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TRef21

You know dealing with big guys at the varsity and college level, you talk to them once, they usually get the idea. Then if they get stuck with one, the coach usually pulls them out or screams at them. I guess was too nice with this one.

That sums up nicely the problems that you had in that particular game.

You should have dealt with the players exactly as you wrote above. Give them one warning, and if they don't listen to that warning, then issue the immediate "T". If you do it that way, no one in the gym (including the players, coaches, tournament director and your assignor) can possibly have any legitimate complaint about your actions. All the extra talking and warning that you did ended up serving absolutely no purpose at all, did it?

If you take care of bidness properly, then you NEVER have any worries about the players, coaches and tournament directors. You KNOW that you handled the situation exactly the way that it should have been handled. And, as for your assignor, you can now ask him if he had any legitimate reason to take you off of the game, other than keeping a tournament director happy. If he can't come up with anything, put it down as a learning experience and don't put yourself in that position again with that particular assignor....unless you do AAU ball strictly for the money, like a lot of officials.

Jmo.

[JoeTheRef]

In regards to the assignor, if a High School or College AD or coach or a AAU host team administrator tells an assignor I don't want JoeRef at my school anymore because of XYZ reasons, chances are my assignor will probably not send me there. Its a business. Is it right? I don't think so, but it is a business. Just my .02.

[Scrapper1]

TRef, there's a lot of really good information and advice in this thread. And I honestly don't have a whole lot to add to it. I think Jurassic, and especially JRutledge, have really made some excellent points.

The only thing that I would add is that these "player management" skills that we're discussing don't just come naturally to everybody. I've been officiating for about 15 years, and do some college ball, and it's still sometimes a struggle for me at the college level. The good news is that AAU is the perfect place to work on it. (At that level, my experience has been that the best policy is generally, "whack early and whack often". )

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

In regards to the assignor, if a High School or College AD or coach or a AAU host team administrator tells an assignor I don't want JoeRef at my school anymore because of XYZ reasons, chances are my assignor will probably not send me there. Its a business. Is it right? I don't think so, but it is a business. Just my .02.

Exactly. Assignors are not your friends -- they are likely getting a cut of your game fee and, in general, they aren't going to throw away income to back one referee, regardless of how good you are. It's a bidness.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

In regards to the assignor, if a High School or College AD or coach or a AAU host team administrator tells an assignor I don't want JoeRef at my school anymore because of XYZ reasons, chances are my assignor will probably not send me there. Its a business. Is it right? I don't think so, but it is a business. Just my .02.

Can't completely agree.

It sureasheck is a business....but....assignors have to provide bodies(hopefully but not necessarily always capable bodies ) to fill available games. Assignors therefore depend on the officials that work for them to be available for those games. Unfortunately, in most states there also seems to be an annual shortage of officials. If an assignor starts to lose good people because of a failure to keep his officials fairly content, he/she ain't gonna be the assignor for very long imo.

It doesn't do any assignor any good to have a ton of games available unless he can provide officials to do those games. And you aren't going to keep your officials or have officials go the extra mile for you when you need them to if you're crapping on them like tref got crapped on. If a legitimate complaint is received about an official, fine, the assignor should deal with it. An official righteously taking care of bidness ain't ever a legitimate complaint though imo.

Officials make their assignors look good, not vice-versa.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by TRef21

Today I was working an AAU Tourney, which I barley do. I was doing it as a favor for the once " friend" that was assigning. I was scheduled to work 3 games and only worked one, before being pulled off the last 2. Here is what happened:

On Saturday, my partner who I worked with again today where working the game which the host AAU team was playing. They had this one no.24 who was a hell of a player but had a bad bad bad attitude. He would complain about every call that was made on him, and felt that he could do no wrong. After a call in the first half my partner dinged him for, the kid said something so he gets stuck. Later in the second half as we are lining up for Ft's no. 24 tells one his players to " Chin Check" the other guy. I told the kid why are you telling him to chin check him. No. 24 responed, ref you don't even no what a chin check is. I was like you know, I'm older than you and know what it is and don't tell your teammate that. Now you are on the edge.

So with a minute left his team is down by 2. no. 3 black fouls and we are in the bonus. As we are lining up for ft's, no.3 black starts saying things about the call and I was like, " What did you say"? He was like nothing ref, I said thats right you said nothing. So now other guys are complaining and no. 24 is still talking when it doesn't even relate to him. I was like you know something guys ( to both teams), you guys aren't in the NBA and not that great yet, so stop complaining. No. 24 now pops off again and still won't stop. I was like now you are borderline. Still won't be quiet and keeps ranting and raving, so my partner and I at the same blow the whistles and ding him. I tech him, pitch him, and his team loses by 5.

After the game his coach was like no 24. said you told him to his face that he was sorry. I was like coach why would I tell a player that he was a sorry player. I'm more professional than that. He was like I have known you for a couple of years, and I know the kid doesn't lie. I was like you know coach you know I'm more professional than that, and I never told him that.

So this morning scheduling to do 3 championship games, my partner the same from Saturday, got pulled off after our first one. The assigner, said that the admin. is still upset about what happened and don't want you two working. So the assigner came in with his partner and they work the two games remaining. So I'm pissed! Not about the situation but how the assigner handled it. A guy we both thought that was our friend pulls us off 2 AAU games because admin. is mad. He stabbed us in the back.

As an assigner aren't you supposed to have the officials back? So what if they are pissed, let us work, but don't pull us off. I told the assigner i wasn't going to do any more favors for him (like this tourney) and just stick to my college ball ( since he assigns during the season and what not), and this is absolute B.S. You are supposed to have our backs. I see where we stand. I do that right thing and pitch kid after being more than generous with warnings after the first tech and we get screwed. See we don't do the right thing we lose control of the game and something happens and we get screwed. We do that right thing and we still get screwed ( in my situation). What is your guys take on my situation.

What do you guys think about the situation

Dude, this is AAU a perfect time to pitch a player for the smallest thing. Just because its summer ball does not mean you do not treat it as if it's not regular season. I'm a firm believer, if you let crap like this happen in the summer you will let it happen in the regular season. IMO, you can't just turn the switch on and off whenever you get ready. Carry yourself in the summer, like you will carry yourself in the regualar season.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TRef21

On Saturday, my partner who I worked with again today where working the game which the host AAU team was playing. They had this one no.24 who was a hell of a player but had a bad bad bad attitude. He would complain about every call that was made on him, and felt that he could do no wrong. After a call in the first half my partner dinged him for, the kid said something so he gets stuck.

Sounds like this T took too long.

Originally Posted by TRef21

Later in the second half as we are lining up for Ft's no. 24 tells one his players to " Chin Check" the other guy. I told the kid why are you telling him to chin check him. No. 24 responed, ref you don't even no what a chin check is. I was like you know, I'm older than you and know what it is and don't tell your teammate that. Now you are on the edge.

This conversation was not necessary or helpful, it seems. Just use the information to keep a better eye on post action.

Originally Posted by TRef21

So with a minute left his team is down by 2. no. 3 black fouls and we are in the bonus. As we are lining up for ft's, no.3 black starts saying things about the call and I was like, " What did you say"?

"What did you say" rarely ends well. If you feel the talking needs to get addressed, I'd find a different way of doing it.

Originally Posted by TRef21

He was like nothing ref, I said thats right you said nothing. So now other guys are complaining and no. 24 is still talking when it doesn't even relate to him. I was like you know something guys ( to both teams), you guys aren't in the NBA and not that great yet, so stop complaining.

None of this was necessary or helpful, it seems. In fact, as has been said, it seems a bit insulting and counterproductive. No surprise things went south from there:

Originally Posted by TRef21

No. 24 now pops off again and still won't stop. I was like now you are borderline.

Borderline? This kid crossed the border a long time before this. Your conversations would have ended and your troubles may have been avoided had you stuck him sooner and more frequently.

Originally Posted by TRef21

Still won't be quiet and keeps ranting and raving, so my partner and I at the same blow the whistles and ding him. I tech him, pitch him, and his team loses by 5.

Again, this took too long to get to.

Originally Posted by TRef21

After the game his coach was like no 24. said you told him to his face that he was sorry. I was like coach why would I tell a player that he was a sorry player. I'm more professional than that. He was like I have known you for a couple of years, and I know the kid doesn't lie. I was like you know coach you know I'm more professional than that, and I never told him that.

This entire conversation would have been avoided had you not spent so much time trying to talk these kids out of technical fouls. You told them they "weren't that great...." That's what 24 heard, and to him it's the same thing as "you're sorry." He just paraphrased you, and did it relatively accurately it seems.
Frankly, I'd have pulled you, too; for talking too much.

Originally Posted by TRef21

As an assigner aren't you supposed to have the officials back? So what if they are pissed, let us work, but don't pull us off. I told the assigner i wasn't going to do any more favors for him (like this tourney) and just stick to my college ball ( since he assigns during the season and what not), and this is absolute B.S. You are supposed to have our backs. I see where we stand. I do that right thing and pitch kid after being more than generous with warnings after the first tech and we get screwed. See we don't do the right thing we lose control of the game and something happens and we get screwed. We do that right thing and we still get screwed ( in my situation). What is your guys take on my situation.

What do you guys think about the situation

I think you're assigner covered his a$$ after you forced his hand. If this guy assigns some of your season college games, don't be surprised if your workload gets decreased next year.

[TRef21]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Sounds like this T took too long. This conversation was not necessary or helpful, it seems. Just use the information to keep a better eye on post action.

"What did you say" rarely ends well. If you feel the talking needs to get addressed, I'd find a different way of doing it. None of this was necessary or helpful, it seems. In fact, as has been said, it seems a bit insulting and counterproductive. No surprise things went south from there: Borderline? This kid crossed the border a long time before this. Your conversations would have ended and your troubles may have been avoided had you stuck him sooner and more frequently. Again, this took too long to get to.
This entire conversation would have been avoided had you not spent so much time trying to talk these kids out of technical fouls. You told them they "weren't that great...." That's what 24 heard, and to him it's the same thing as "you're sorry." He just paraphrased you, and did it relatively accurately it seems.
Frankly, I'd have pulled you, too; for talking too much.


I think you're assigner covered his a$$ after you forced his hand. If this guy assigns some of your season college games, don't be surprised if your workload gets decreased next year.

Nope he doesn't assign any of my college games.

[CLH]

T-dawg is just skurred to be throwing techs, he still a little wet behind the ears.I explained all this to him last night and he's still arguing with me. HAHA! Someday he'll learn!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by TRef21

Later in the second half as we are lining up for Ft's no. 24 tells one his players to " Chin Check" the other guy. I told the kid why are you telling him to chin check him. No. 24 responed, ref you don't even no what a chin check is. I was like you know, I'm older than you and know what it is and don't tell your teammate that. Now you are on the edge.

Me, instead of engaging in conversation, I would have said loudly to my partner "Watch #24 and #???"(whoever #24 was talking to). That would get the players attention without any unnecessary verbiage or exchanges.

Originally Posted by TRef21

So with a minute left his team is down by 2. no. 3 black fouls and we are in the bonus. As we are lining up for ft's, no.3 black starts saying things about the call and I was like, " What did you say"? He was like nothing ref, I said thats right you said nothing.

Why would you ask #3 what he said? What purpose does that serve? If you heard what he said then respond appropriately--warning, technical, ignore--whatever the case may be. But if you didn't hear something then don't go looking for a fight.

Originally Posted by TRef21

So now other guys are complaining and no. 24 is still talking when it doesn't even relate to him. I was like you know something guys ( to both teams), you guys aren't in the NBA and not that great yet, so stop complaining. No. 24 now pops off again and still won't stop. I was like now you are borderline. Still won't be quiet and keeps ranting and raving, so my partner and I at the same blow the whistles and ding him. I tech him, pitch him, and his team loses by 5.

If you make a smart-a$$ comment to a player you best believe he will have a response and/or will complain to his/her coach. Me, I know exactly what I would have said to #24--"you already have 1 tech". That's it. There would have been no other reason for me to say anything. He would have either shut up or earned a 'T' after that.

Originally Posted by CLH

T-dawg is just skurred to be throwing techs, he still a little wet behind the ears.I explained all this to him last night and he's still arguing with me. HAHA! Someday he'll learn!

But he's in SoCal and has 3 years of experience, right?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Me, instead of engaging in conversation, I would have said loudly to my partner "Watch #24 and #???"(whoever #24 was talking to). That would get the players attention without any unnecessary verbiage or exchanges.

That's a good one that seems to always work.

But he's in SoCal and has 3 years of experience, right?

ouch...that's gonna leave a mark.

[Mwanr1]

Tommy,

You got way too confrontational with the players, especially when these are 9th graders for AAU ball. If they mouth off at each other, whack both of them. Their 1st T is their first warning. I'd like what BadNewsRef said, say it loudly to your partner "Watch #24 and #???"(whoever #24 was talking to). This would usually alarm them to play ball rather talk. If they cross the line of sportsmanship again, then whack them but use your T wisely and make sure it is a good one. You are always doing the right thing by issuing deserved T's despite of what fan/coaches/players think.

At camps, assignors/coordinators/observers like to see guys who can manage the game, especially at the higher level. Don't tolerate BS, take care of it! If you can't handle 9th graders, what makes your college assignors think you can handle young adults at the JC or higher level? The whole thing about these are 9th graders and you don't work this level is BS - I know you can do better than that.

Call your assignors tonight (after supper when he's relaxed and comfy) and chat briefly with him how the tournament went. Don't bring up why he pulled you off the game. He did it for a reason so let it be. Just let him know you are there to assist him for future tournaments and if you do this, chances are you'll gain more respect from him.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Tommy,

You got way too confrontational with the players, especially when these are 9th graders for AAU ball. If they mouth off at each other, whack both of them. Their 1st T is their first warning. I'd like what BadNewsRef said, say it loudly to your partner "Watch #24 and #???"(whoever #24 was talking to). This would usually alarm them to play ball rather talk. If they cross the line of sportsmanship again, then whack them but use your T wisely and make sure it is a good one. You are always doing the right thing by issuing deserved T's despite of what fan/coaches/players think.

At camps, assignors/coordinators/observers like to see guys who can manage the game, especially at the higher level. Don't tolerate BS, take care of it! If you can't handle 9th graders, what makes your college assignors think you can handle young adults at the JC or higher level? The whole thing about these are 9th graders and you don't work this level is BS - I know you can do better than that.

Call your assignors tonight (after supper when he's relaxed and comfy) and chat briefly with him how the tournament went. Don't bring up why he pulled you off the game. He did it for a reason so let it be. Just let him know you are there to assist him for future tournaments and if you do this, chances are you'll gain more respect from him.

mwanr1 makes a good point. you have to manage the game here. I understand your hesitance(sp?) to throw, what sounds to be, the best player on the floor out. It's hard to do, but think about the next guy that has to ref him... what kind of box are you putting him in? even kobe gets tossed every once in a while... I will piggyback off what badnewsref has already said, if it is just 24 you are problem with, you announce that you have had enough and that if he says anything else you are ejecting him, while also announcing it loud enough to your partners where not only they hear you but the coaches, and if you are lucky, the fans can here you as well so when you toss him everyone in the gym is like, "dang the ref told him not to say anything else". You can also put a little acting job in there as well. after you blow the whistle to eject the kid add some more verbage like, "you can't say that to me" or "that's too much" or "I've already warned you" and then announce the T and the ejection.

To backtrack a bit, when you tell 24 you've had enough and announce it loudly try not to do it in a demeaning way. I don't know how to explain it really but most people know when they've done something in a demeaning way. Like I've seen refs warn coaches before and I have seen it look like the ref was demeaning and showing up the coach and i've also seen it where it looked like nothing more was going on then the coach was just being warned and nothing else was happening. That is what you are striving for. You want it to appear that you are in full control of the situation but that you are not overbearing and abrasive, if that makes sense.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

mwanr1 makes a good point. you have to manage the game here. I understand your hesitance(sp?) to throw, what sounds to be, the best player on the floor out. It's hard to do, but think about the next guy that has to ref him... what kind of box are you putting him in? even kobe gets tossed every once in a while... I will piggyback off what badnewsref has already said, if it is just 24 you are problem with, you announce that you have had enough and that if he says anything else you are ejecting him, while also announcing it loud enough to your partners where not only they hear you but the coaches, and if you are lucky, the fans can here you as well so when you toss him everyone in the gym is like, "dang the ref told him not to say anything else". You can also put a little acting job in there as well. after you blow the whistle to eject the kid add some more verbage like, "you can't say that to me" or "that's too much" or "I've already warned you" and then announce the T and the ejection.

To backtrack a bit, when you tell 24 you've had enough and announce it loudly try not to do it in a demeaning way. I don't know how to explain it really but most people know when they've done something in a demeaning way. Like I've seen refs warn coaches before and I have seen it look like the ref was demeaning and showing up the coach and i've also seen it where it looked like nothing more was going on then the coach was just being warned and nothing else was happening. That is what you are striving for. You want it to appear that you are in full control of the situation but that you are not overbearing and abrasive, if that makes sense.

I can't figure out how you do what you're saying without being demeaning. You can't loudly tell a player to knock it off without being demeaning. And really, you don't need to sell this to the fans or anyone else.

If you've decided to have a few words directly with a player make sure it's between you, the player and your partner either at that moment or shortly after. The coach may or may not be included, they don't always help. No need to get loud or put on a show, just tell him exactly what he's doing wrong and how he needs to change his behavior. Then drop it. If you've decided the player's just a jerk go to the captain ot some other team mate you trust & tell him to get his player in line.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I can't figure out how you do what you're saying without being demeaning. You can't loudly tell a player to knock it off without being demeaning. And really, you don't need to sell this to the fans or anyone else.

If you've decided to have a few words directly with a player make sure it's between you, the player and your partner either at that moment or shortly after. The coach may or may not be included, they don't always help. No need to get loud or put on a show, just tell him exactly what he's doing wrong and how he needs to change his behavior. Then drop it. If you've decided the player's just a jerk go to the captain ot some other team mate you trust & tell him to get his player in line.

i don't mean you are saying it loud enough directly while looking at the player. I should have explained it better. when you say it loud enough you are looking at one or both of your partners and saying, "guys i've had enough from 24" but really and truly nothing should have to be said after the first T.

I do truly believe there is a way to do this in a non-overbearing or abrasive way, while not being demeaning as well.