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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 07:50am
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Clock starts too soon

Youth tournament, championship game. 34 seconds to go, Team A hits a free throw to go up by 5 points and coach instructs his players "no foul" and to back up to half court. Team B inbounds by rolling the ball onto the court where a player hovers over the ball, but never touches it. When the ball gets almost to half court, and just as the player touches the ball, my partner blows his whistle because the timer has improperly started the clock. There are now 29 seconds on the clock.

Partner says to restore 34 seconds to the clock and gives the ball back to Team B on the baseline. Team A then decides to pressure the pass and the dribble, so Team B is hurt by the timer's error since it has to use a running clock to get ball to halfcourt (where previously it had a "free pass" to that spot with the clock stopped.)

When a similar play was discussed here three years ago, some argued that play should be resumed with a throw-in at the spot nearest where the ball was touched, with time restored. Others said there was no rule to support that action and we should have a "do over."

One other option: since the officials had definite knowledge that 5 seconds ran off the clock that should not have....using 5-10-1 and 5-10-2, could we let play continue and then at the next dead ball, put 5 seconds back on the clock?

Related question: Should the whistle have sounded at all? The rule tells what to do to correct a timer's mistake, but I don't see where it says to whistle the ball dead because of a timer's mistake.

Last edited by BayStateRef; Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 07:57am.
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 08:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
When a similar play was discussed here three years ago, some argued that play should be resumed with a throw-in at the spot nearest where the ball was touched, with time restored. Others said there was no rule to support that action and we should have a "do over."
Nevadaref has previously explained, with proof, that the National Fedeation finally stated explicitly to not allow for "do-overs". They seemed rather adamant about this case, so one might be smart to listen to this; even if it seems that this is the right thing to do. However, I'm not certain that this situation falls inside the Fed's thinking in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
When the ball gets almost to half court, and just as the player touches the ball, my partner blows his whistle because the timer has improperly started the clock. There are now 29 seconds on the clock.
If you know that A will now full-court press, you might rule (get together with your partner perhaps) and rule that the whistle came slightly after B touched the ball. Therefore, a throw-in from the sideline is awarded. As for time coming off the clock, maybe use 2-1 to take 0.3 seconds off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
One other option: since the officials had definite knowledge that 5 seconds ran off the clock that should not have....using 5-10-1 and 5-10-2, could we let play continue and then at the next dead ball, put 5 seconds back on the clock?
I have used this mechanic in the past, and it worked. However, at end of the game situations, everyone is aware of the clock, and you'd be taking a lot of heat for trying this method. I even submit that if something goes haywire, that the whole situation could be blamed by using this mechanic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
Related question: Should the whistle have sounded at all? The rule tells what to do to correct a timer's mistake, but I don't see where it says to whistle the ball dead because of a timer's mistake.
Yes, I believe it's best to fix the error immediately.
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 11:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
1) Team A hits a free throw to go up by 5 points and coach instructs his players "no foul" and to back up to half court. Team B inbounds by rolling the ball onto the court where a player hovers over the ball, but never touches it. When the ball gets almost to half court, and just as the player touches the ball, my partner blows his whistle because the timer has improperly started the clock. There are now 29 seconds on the clock. Partner says to restore 34 seconds to the clock and gives the ball back to Team B on the baseline.

2)Related question: Should the whistle have sounded at all? The rule tells what to do to correct a timer's mistake, but I don't see where it says to whistle the ball dead because of a timer's mistake.
1) Your partner is wise beyond his years. The whistle was blown during a throw-in. It goes back to the original throw-in spot and team B can still run the endline.

2) See NFHS rule 5-8-2(b).
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 11:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
1) Nevadaref has previously explained, with proof, that the National Fedeation finally stated explicitly to not allow for "do-overs".

2) If you know that A will now full-court press, you might rule (get together with your partner perhaps) and rule that the whistle came slightly after B touched the ball. Therefore, a throw-in from the sideline is awarded. As for time coming off the clock, maybe use 2-1 to take 0.3 seconds off.

1) Nevadaref has no definitive proof to back up his previous opinion. The FED language issued re: do-overs was not meant to cover a play like this. This play is a do-over.

2) If you're talking about rule 2-3(the elastic power rule), you can only use that rule if there is NO other rule covering a situation. In this situation, NFHS rule 5-10 is the pertinent rule covering the situation. And rule 5-10 says that you can't take any time off the clock unless you have definite information as to the time involved. That stops you from pulling out of a hat a guess like 0.3 seconds.
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 12:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
1) Your partner is wise beyond his years. The whistle was blown during a throw-in. It goes back to the original throw-in spot and team B can still run the endline.
The whistle was blown just as the player touched the ball. I could not swear which came first...the touch or the whistle. What do you say if the touch came first? Still return the ball to the baseline...or spot throw-in at the POI?
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 12:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
Partner says to restore 34 seconds to the clock and gives the ball back to Team B on the baseline. Team A then decides to pressure the pass and the dribble, so Team B is hurt by the timer's error since it has to use a running clock to get ball to halfcourt (where previously it had a "free pass" to that spot with the clock stopped.)
That makes no difference when you're considering what to do. Mistakes happen, sometimes they place teams at a disadvantage. Oh well.
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 01:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
1) Nevadaref has no definitive proof to back up his previous opinion. The FED language issued re: do-overs was not meant to cover a play like this. This play is a do-over.

2) If you're talking about rule 2-3(the elastic power rule), you can only use that rule if there is NO other rule covering a situation. In this situation, NFHS rule 5-10 is the pertinent rule covering the situation. And rule 5-10 says that you can't take any time off the clock unless you have definite information as to the time involved. That stops you from pulling out of a hat a guess like 0.3 seconds.
Agreed. My bad.

I searched for NV's post re: do-overs and the search function wasn't helpful for me. Oh well.
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 05:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
Nevadaref has previously explained, with proof, that the National Fedeation finally stated explicitly to not allow for "do-overs". They seemed rather adamant about this case, so one might be smart to listen to this; even if it seems that this is the right thing to do. However, I'm not certain that this situation falls inside the Fed's thinking in this case.
It's a timing error. This is clearly a situation to which the statement is intended to apply.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
1) Nevadaref has no definitive proof to back up his previous opinion. The FED language issued re: do-overs was not meant to cover a play like this. This play is a do-over.
Nope, not my opinion, it's a clear statement by the NFHS. It's right there in black and white in the new officials manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
I searched for NV's post re: do-overs and the search function wasn't helpful for me. Oh well.
Allow me to help you locate it.
there are no provisions in the rules for "do-overs"
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 07:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
It's a timing error. This is clearly a situation to which the statement is intended to apply.
So based on the facts of this game, what would you do?
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 08:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
So based on the facts of this game, what would you do?
On a play like this I check the clock to make sure that the timer properly waits to start it. So I would have seen it start and caught it after only a couple of seconds came off. At that point I would have sounded the whistle, which would have been well before the player touched the ball inbounds, and reset the clock to 34. Since the stoppage came DURING a throw-in that is the POI and the game is resumed with a throw-in for the same team from the same location.

JR has made a good point in the past that NFHS 4-36-1 does not specify "timing" error, but it does state correctable error. I think that the spirit and intent of the rule is for it to apply just the same. Also I have sent a comment about adding the words "or timing mistake" to my rep on the NFHS rule committee. This is a simple fix which would greatly clarify such situations.
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 08:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
On a play like this I check the clock to make sure that the timer properly waits to start it. So I would have seen it start and caught it after only a couple of seconds came off. At that point I would have sounded the whistle, which would have been well before the player touched the ball inbounds, and reset the clock to 34. Since the stoppage came DURING a throw-in that is the POI and the game is resumed with a throw-in for the same team from the same location.
That sure sounds like a do-over...which is what you pointed out the NFHS has said is not allowed.

Also...there is some doubt the whistle came during the throw-in. As the new trail, I was following the ball and the player up the court, with my hand in the air, ready to chop in time as soon as the ball is touched. My partner is about half-way between the division line and the free throw line. The only clock/scoreboard is on the scorer's table and only my partner could see it. He is not watching when the ball is touched and I am not watching the clock. I heard his whistle just as the player picked up the ball. It was close...and I could not say for sure which came first. But for now...assume the touch came first. Does that change what you would do?

Why not let the play continue and at the next dead ball add the 5 seconds that you know came off the clock improperly?
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 08:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
That sure sounds like a do-over...which is what you pointed out the NFHS has said is not allowed.
A do-over would be if, after the ball had been touched and time chopped, you then realized the clock had run extra, blew your whistle, and put the entire time back on the clock and went back to the original throw-in spot.

Using POI is your only option if the ball hasn't been touched, and POI is the throw-in. It matters not where the ball is - since the throw-in hasn't ended, it is the POI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
But for now...assume the touch came first. Does that change what you would do?
It would me. I would blow it dead as soon as I realized the issue, use my backcourt count to determine how much time had come off after the ball was touched, take that off of the original time and reset the clock, then inbound at the point nearest the ball when I blew it dead.

In this case, POI is team control with the ball at the point the player had it, so that is why we go to the nearest point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
Why not let the play continue and at the next dead ball add the 5 seconds that you know came off the clock improperly?
What if the next dead ball isn't until the game is over? Best to take care of it at the time.
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 08:58pm
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This, once again, is why there needs to be a touched ball requires 3 or 4 tenths to come off the clock.

That way neither team gets screwed by the timers error.
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 09:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
What if the next dead ball isn't until the game is over? Best to take care of it at the time.
We did that at the time. In looking back, I am wondering if there is a "better" way so that one team was not "penalized" for the timer's error.

Based on the way this game was going....I am confident there would have been another dead ball. Either the team that was behind would have made a basket (remember the "No foul" cry from the coach...he was willing to trade a basket for time off the clock) or if they missed and did not get the rebound, they would have fouled.
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Old Tue Jan 01, 2008, 09:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
That sure sounds like a do-over...which is what you pointed out the NFHS has said is not allowed.
Gee, it is looks like a do-over, quacks like a do-over..........
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