Fan abuse to player

[Nevadaref]

I believe that the following is likely a minority opinion, but I would have penalized the home team for the thrown bottle. At the HS level that kind of unacceptable conduct needs to have harsh consequences. If the home site management cannot ensure that their spectators will conduct themselves in a sporting manner, then their team deserves to be penalized.

Team technical foul against the home team.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I believe that the following is likely a minority opinion, but I would have penalized the home team for the thrown bottle. At the HS level that kind of unacceptable conduct needs to have harsh consequences. If the home site management cannot ensure that their spectators will conduct themselves in a sporting manner, then their team deserves to be penalized.

Team technical foul against the home team.

Nevada,

Among our group, we have beat this to death but we never raised this option. We felt at the time that home team administration did a pretty good job with THEIR decision to empty out the student section. Plus, we did have the old PA announcement to the rest of the audience.

But, I do like at least having that option in my tool belt.

I know we've talked about this over and over, about not dealing with the fans except to ask game administration to take care of anything we see as a problem or potential problem. However, I have to say that once that bottle got thrown, a T should have been assessed to the home team regardless of what the game administration did afterwards. A thrown object that caused a disruption should be assessed a T. I know in Nebraska, we would be backed by the association for assessing this T because it falls in line with the "mandate" that we T the home team if they throw toilet paper after the first basket or any similar act.

I know many of you would say there's no real justification in the rules for assessing a T for the home team in this situation, but if that bottle had been full, and the kid ended up with a head injury from it (and trust me, that CAN happen), and the officials did nothing except let the game administration take care of it, the officials may end up with some liability in some states. Some states' high courts have ruled that passing the buck increases the liability of the person who did so. Something to think about.

[armymanjones]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

I know many of you would say there's no real justification in the rules for assessing a T for the home team in this situation, but if that bottle had been full, and the kid ended up with a head injury from it (and trust me, that CAN happen), and the officials did nothing except let the game administration take care of it, the officials may end up with some liability in some states. Some states' high courts have ruled that passing the buck increases the liability of the person who did so. Something to think about.

My thought about this is how do you determine which team's fan threw the bottle. Could have been the players own classmate, who didn't like him. The management responded promptly and accordingly. If the game was close the Team T could have decided the game. Let the players decide not the fans. Just my 2 pennies worth.

[mbyron]

Nevada, just curious -- which rule sanctions the team technical you'd assess?

I can certainly see the rationale for it: jeers don't interrupt the game, but thrown objects do (they also are far riskier).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Nevada, just curious -- which rule sanctions the team technical you'd assess?

I can certainly see the rationale for it: jeers don't interrupt the game, but thrown objects do (they also are far riskier).

2.8.1 Situation

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I believe that the following is likely a minority opinion, but I would have penalized the home team for the thrown bottle. At the HS level that kind of unacceptable conduct needs to have harsh consequences. If the home site management cannot ensure that their spectators will conduct themselves in a sporting manner, then their team deserves to be penalized.

Team technical foul against the home team.

While this is allowed, I'm not sure it should be used in the OP's case. ronny did not see the specific person who threw the bottle. The player confronted who he thought threw the bottle. So, I'm not sure guessing on this call is the right thing to do, especially since the Fed. mentions it is also a call we should use discretion in making.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

While this is allowed, I'm not sure it should be used in the OP's case. ronny did not see the specific person who threw the bottle. The player confronted who he thought threw the bottle. So, I'm not sure guessing on this call is the right thing to do, especially since the Fed. mentions it is also a call we should use discretion in making.

"bottle comes out of the student section and hits #23 in the head."

Don't misunderstand my opinion on this one. In 12 years of HS officiating, I have never charged a technical foul to a spectator or member of the crowd. This is one case in which I would have done so. Here you have a thrown object that clearly comes from the student section of the home school, which doesn't just come onto the floor or come near a player or official, but actually strikes a GUEST player in the head! What type of action are you waiting to see before you assess a technical foul? Do you want someone to come out of the stands and assault a visiting player?

The fact is that the action which took place was clearly egregious and no way to treat the GUESTS from the other school. Please remember that this is HS athletics. Notice that I called the visitors the guests. That is what they are and how they should be treated.

In fact, if the game management had not escorted all of the students out, I would not have continued the game. If there is any question about the safety of the student-athletes and officials when taking the floor, then we are not going to play.

It also seems from the logic expressed in your opinion that you would disagree with removing all of the students because the individual who threw the bottle wasn't seen and couldn't be clearly identified. Do you think that it is unjust to remove all of the students in the crowd? Aren't they guessing on the removal and shouldn't they be using more discretion lest they unfairly punish someone? That's the crux of your statement, right?

[Adam]

I don't see a T here, but I certainly see the logic in having them all removed. Especially because the perpetrator wasn't easily identifiable.

Eject them all and let God sort them out.

Game management seems to have been on top of it, so I don't know that a T was in order.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't see a T here, but I certainly see the logic in having them all removed. Especially because the perpetrator wasn't easily identifiable.

Eject them all and let God sort them out.

Game management seems to have been on top of it, so I don't know that a T was in order.

Adam,
Please humor me by stating under what conditions you would charge a T against a spectator or the crowd? I'm just curious.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It also seems from the logic expressed in your opinion that you would disagree with removing all of the students because the individual who threw the bottle wasn't seen and couldn't be clearly identified. Do you think that it is unjust to remove all of the students in the crowd? Aren't they guessing on the removal and shouldn't they be using more discretion lest they unfairly punish someone? That's the crux of your statement, right?

Nevada, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, but as you've probably surmised, the weather around here has been fun.

To answer your question, I would be in favor of management handling the problem, with our help. If, together, we determine the whole student section needs to be thrown out, so be it. If the idiot who threw the bottle fesses up, they should be thrown out. I was only responding to your original comment:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I believe that the following is likely a minority opinion, but I would have penalized the home team for the thrown bottle.

Team technical foul against the home team.

I just wouldn't be so quick to penalize the team just because we're "pretty sure" the bottle came from one of their followers. Yep, the bottle came from the student section, but are you positive it wasn't actually thrown by a cousin of one of the students who happened to come along and is not even a student at that school?

My point is the T is a weapon in our arsenal, but even the Fed says it should be used with discretion. I wouldn't use it in this particular instance. If we need game management's help to clear the entire gym, let's do it. But let's also be careful about penalizing the team for actions off the court and outside the game.