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Old Tue Apr 20, 2004, 05:04pm
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Question

The men’s league I Officiate in has really been testing my resolve as a Ref. I for one do not under any circumstance allow "loud" cursing. I quickly give a tech. Said under their breath I can let it go but that is the only reason I will. My partner "warns" them and has never teched anybody for it. How prevalent is cursing as you into the higher leagues? I have played this game for 30 years and have NEVER said the things that I hear in this league. Believe me I have argued and disputed calls and talked plenty of smack to the other players but that is mild as compared to this. Also players telling me I don't know what I'm doing or that I'm favoring one team or the other. Nothing could be farther from the truth as far as favoring a certain team. The other is always open to conjecture. Is this the kind of abuse you can expect if you venture into the higher levels? I have been asked if I have thought about the move up so I thought I would ask the experts.
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Old Tue Apr 20, 2004, 05:14pm
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Lightbulb

First of all, do not compare any officiating of any kind to a Men's League. There is nothing that goes on in a Men's League that goes on in any kind of basketball or any other sport if you do them. Men's Leagues are a bunch of wannabe, never had been, or complete has beens playing in a league where there is often no "real coach," no real structure and just no real play.

So to compare what goes on here is like comparing a milkshake to to a Long Island Ice Tea. You can drink both of them, but one gets you drunk, the other might make you full.

Do yourself a favor, get out while you can.

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Old Tue Apr 20, 2004, 08:54pm
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get out when you can

I use to do a similar men's league during the off season. I got so tired of T-ing everyone up and ejecting hot heads, I finally quit after a correctional officer threatened to follow me out to the car and show me what a real flagrant technical was after I ejected him for throwing a punch at a guy. The lousy $20 bucks a game wasn't worth my life. I also developed really bad habits that I'm still trying to get rid of.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 01:38pm
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As a younger official, I take a lot of men's league games not for the quality of play or the money, but for the experience, particularly in game management issues. I know going into the mens games that I will catch all kinds of BS from the players, who JRutledge aptly described as wannabes and being thrown into the fire like that has its merits in dealing with unusual situations or hostile players/coaches in real games. When I'm a seasoned veteran, will I still want to do mens games? Doubtful. But for now, for me, they're somewhat valuable in building communication skills.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 01:48pm
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Mens league not for the faint of heart

When I first started officiating, at one of our early meetings the situation of a mens league tournament in town was brought up. Our president said that those that wanted to could do it, but recommended that it be avoided. He went on to say that you newer guys, I strongly recommend you not go anywhere near the place to officiate it. Now that I have done it a few years, I have this philosophy. I have no intention of taking that abuse on a weekly or nightly basis. I do however work one mens league tournament a year. About 20 percent of the player are ex college players, and there has even been an ex NBA guy or two involved. I do it because it is a road trip for myself and 4 or 5 other guys I officiate with, we go for the weekend, and it is actually a lot of fun. Yes there is a lot of talking and such on the court, but since we have been going over there for a while we know most of the regulars and have a decent rapor off of the court anyway LOL...One final thought, if you do use mens league games to get experience, dont fall into the lazy "camp mechanics" way of officiating. Use it as a place to work on mechanics. I do believe long term exposure to mens league games is more detrimental to a young official than it is worth... IMHO
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 01:54pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xplayer
The men’s league I Officiate in has really been testing my resolve as a Ref. I for one do not under any circumstance allow "loud" cursing. I quickly give a tech. Said under their breath I can let it go but that is the only reason I will. My partner "warns" them and has never teched anybody for it. How prevalent is cursing as you into the higher leagues? I have played this game for 30 years and have NEVER said the things that I hear in this league. Believe me I have argued and disputed calls and talked plenty of smack to the other players but that is mild as compared to this. Also players telling me I don't know what I'm doing or that I'm favoring one team or the other. Nothing could be farther from the truth as far as favoring a certain team. The other is always open to conjecture. Is this the kind of abuse you can expect if you venture into the higher levels? I have been asked if I have thought about the move up so I thought I would ask the experts.
Higher men's leagues, or are you talking college or pro basketball?

As for men's leagues.

Cussing, unless it's a church or YMCA league, okay not even there, as long as it is not directed at me or my partner I don't care.

Telling me I don't know what I'm doing, now that is a T.

Telling me we are favoring the other team, they get the look. By look I mean the "That is the most stupid thing I've ever heard," look with a slight head shake.

Come on guys men's leagues can be fun, where else can you officiate a former NBA player and current NBA color commentator, and realize that the guy is as dumb as a rock and knows NOTHING about the rules.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 02:00pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra


Come on guys men's leagues can be fun, where else can you officiate a former NBA player and current NBA color commentator, and realize that the guy is as dumb as a rock and knows NOTHING about the rules.
And you need to officiate their league to realize that?

Peace
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 02:17pm
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Wink

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra


Come on guys men's leagues can be fun, where else can you officiate a former NBA player and current NBA color commentator, and realize that the guy is as dumb as a rock and knows NOTHING about the rules.
And you need to officiate their league to realize that?

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Do I need to note sarcasm in the margins?
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 02:27pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra


Do I need to note sarcasm in the margins?
I do not know if you need it, but I needed to say it. And I was having a little fun. It was funny to me.

Peace
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 02:37pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xplayer
The men’s league I Officiate in has really been testing my resolve as a Ref. I for one do not under any circumstance allow "loud" cursing. I quickly give a tech. Said under their breath I can let it go but that is the only reason I will. My partner "warns" them and has never teched anybody for it. How prevalent is cursing as you into the higher leagues? I have played this game for 30 years and have NEVER said the things that I hear in this league. Believe me I have argued and disputed calls and talked plenty of smack to the other players but that is mild as compared to this. Also players telling me I don't know what I'm doing or that I'm favoring one team or the other. Nothing could be farther from the truth as far as favoring a certain team. The other is always open to conjecture. Is this the kind of abuse you can expect if you venture into the higher levels? I have been asked if I have thought about the move up so I thought I would ask the experts.
I have done several (more than 5, less than 10) seasons of YMCA adult basketball here. I do it because I love officiating. Here are my two cents:

If you are using the NFHS rules in your men's league (the Y here does), officiate like a high school official. If someone curses outloud, T him up. If you are using college rules (NCAA, etc.), give them a little bit of leeway on contact, but not on language because college officials will not either.

I was dropped from the schedule recently because the YMCA was more concerned with keeping teams than with following NFHS rules. (That is not my opinion; the sports supervisor told me that.) I was doing the same thing you did--not letting players get away with outrageous actions.

I also agree with some of the other opinions expressed. These ARE guys who are NBA wannabes, and they want you to call the game like you are calling an NBA game. (Think Dennis Rodman.)
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 02:42pm
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Arrow

By "higher Leagues" I was referring to Grade school, High School and above. I consider Grade school higher than a Men’s League myself. This was my second season doing these games but I really don't see myself doing another. I am beginning to lose control over my emotions from the constant barrage of comments. What is the step's involved to get the training and certification needed to officiate the real games? I live in Indiana if that is a factor.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 02:57pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xplayer
By "higher Leagues" I was referring to Grade school, High School and above. I consider Grade school higher than a Men’s League myself. This was my second season doing these games but I really don't see myself doing another. I am beginning to lose control over my emotions from the constant barrage of comments. What is the step's involved to get the training and certification needed to officiate the real games? I live in Indiana if that is a factor.
Go to the local association, talk to other officials. I'm sure that there will be some youth leagues coming up for you to do, but then you get coaches that are wannabes and parents.

Adult leagues are tough, you only talked about T's for cussing, what is your threshold for other T's? You may be getting more abuse because you are letting it happen. You have read many posts about giving a coach a stop sign, well
you can do that for a player,too. Handle it early and don't waver from it, warn then T, don't warn and warn and warn.

Whack a guy early and they will have to be really stupid to keep testing you.

Good luck.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 04:28pm
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Cool

Around here, those leagues are referred to as "jerkball".
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 04:56pm
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Arrow

I give them credit for their tone and volume of their voice and body posture. If I can explain the call and continue to watch the play I will, If not the conversation is over. Aggressive body language get's them my version of the "look". If it continues past the "look", tech. If a ball comes to me faster than it should or is purposefully sent down the court in a direction that requires me to chase it, tech. Talking from the bench so I can hear it, tech. I really try to ignore as much as I can but there must be a limit and I have to set it. I believe my self to be fair and impartial. I DON'T care who wins. I have read on here some time ago the statement " See it all, call what matters" I apologize if that is incorrect but that is how I remember it. I prescribe to that style of officiating. That does not mean, "No blood no foul" but it is more like, "Did the player gain an advantage from it?" Consistency at both ends is my primary goal. I hated inconsistency more than anything as a player. I can see from the comment's here I have been enduring the normal stuff you would expect from this level of players. Thanks for the comments and suggestions as they all seem to be constructive.
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Old Thu Apr 22, 2004, 10:16am
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I agree with the comments posted - men's leagues are generally not worth it.

One point if I may, if you do continue with the men's league, don't ever chase the ball. Let them do it because the minute you turn away from the players, anything can happen. If they look at me like "aren't you goint to get it?", I tell them with a smile that I don't chase down the ball.

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