Illegal dribble interpretation

[just another ref]

Tonight we had our rules clinic. With regard to our recent 400 page, 9,000 post
discussion, Bounce pass to self
I posed the following situation to :

Mac Chauvin
Assistant Commissioner
Coordinates Officials, Oversees all Basketball
Louisiana High School Athletic Association

A1 has used his dribble. He is guarded by B1. He forgets and pushes the ball to the floor to start another dribble. When does the violation occur?

a. When it ..............


He cut me off here. "As soon as he puts it down."

Double checking, I said, "Soon as it hits the floor?"

"Right."

"It doesn't have to touch his hand again?"

"No."

"I can quote you on this, right?"

"You can put it in the paper tomorrow."

[Nevadaref]

So you are saying that he doesn't agree with Howard Mayo up in Portland?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Tonight we had our rules clinic. With regard to our recent 400 page, 9,000 post
discussion, Bounce pass to self
I posed the following situation to :

Mac Chauvin
Assistant Commissioner
Coordinates Officials, Oversees all Basketball
Louisiana High School Athletic Association

A1 has used his dribble. He is guarded by B1. He forgets and pushes the ball to the floor to start another dribble. When does the violation occur?

a. When it ..............


He cut me off here. "As soon as he puts it down."

Double checking, I said, "Soon as it hits the floor?"

"Right."

"It doesn't have to touch his hand again?"

"No."

"I can quote you on this, right?"

"You can put it in the paper tomorrow."

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but there is absolutely no rules support for your guy to say it's a violation as soon as the ball hits the floor.

You can take the strictly literal reading of the rules and argue it's a violation as soon as the ball is batted or pushed to the floor, which I think you do. Or you can take the realistic approach and wait to make sure nothing else happens before A1 touches the ball again, as most of the rest of the planet does.

But waiting for the ball to hit the floor...? Nah.

[mbyron]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

When does the violation occur? As soon has "he puts the ball down."

When can an official know that the violation has occurred? As soon as the player touches the ball again.

Two separate issues, with two distinct answers. (For the cognoscenti, it's the same difference between metaphysics and epistemology.)

A very rough parallel would be a borderline foul. When does the foul occur? At the moment of contact. When do we know that marginal contact is a foul? When we see the contact put the other team at a disadvantage.

On the other hand, you're all correct in a way, so my answer's bound to make you unhappy.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

(For the cognoscenti, it's the same difference between metaphysics and epistemology.)

Cognoscenti are those small cone shaped pasta thingies, right? I like those.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Cognoscenti are those small cone shaped pasta thingies, right? I like those.

Naw, I think that it's Latin and it means that an Italian named Cogno didn't put on his deodorant again.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

When does the violation occur? As soon has "he puts the ball down."

When can an official know that the violation has occurred? As soon as the player touches the ball again.

Two separate issues, with two distinct answers. (For the cognoscenti, it's the same difference between metaphysics and epistemology.)

A very rough parallel would be a borderline foul. When does the foul occur? At the moment of contact. When do we know that marginal contact is a foul? When we see the contact put the other team at a disadvantage.

On the other hand, you're all correct in a way, so my answer's bound to make you unhappy.

From the NCAA rulebook:

Rule 4 - Section 21. Dribble
Art. 1. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats, pushes or taps the ball to the playing court once or several times.
Art. 2. The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing, tapping or batting the ball to the playing court.
...
Rule 9 - Section 7. Double Dribble
Art. 1. A player shall not dribble a second time after the player’s first dribble has ended,...

From the FIBA rulebook:

Art. 24 Dribbling
24.1 Definition
24.1.1 A dribble starts when a player, having gained control of a live ball on the playing court, throws, taps, rolls or dribbles it on the floor and touches it again before it touches another player.
...

It seems that, for NCAA, the simple act of pushing the ball to the ground is the start of a dribble: the rules clearly say 'once' and don't talk about touching the ball again, but I believe that this is a somewhat forced interpretation. For FIBA it is clear that in order to have a dribble, the player has to touch the ball again after it has hit the ground.

What's the definition of dribble for NFHS?

Ciao

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

What's the definition of dribble for NFHS?

Ciao

The relevant part is the same.

:shrug:

[stmaryrams]

I think the point is that one would not call violation on someone who is bounce passing to another player or opponent. Which would involve batting or pushing a ball to the floor possibly following the end of a dribble.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

What's the definition of dribble for NFHS?

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

[mick]

Originally Posted by stmaryrams

I think the point is that one would not call violation on someone who is bounce passing to another player or opponent. Which would involve batting or pushing a ball to the floor possibly following the end of a dribble.

I agree, but not necessarily to another player, because the action could be a bad pass.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by stmaryrams

I think the point is that one would not call violation on someone who is bounce passing to another player or opponent. Which would involve batting or pushing a ball to the floor possibly following the end of a dribble.

I think we all agree that it is not a violation if the ball is bounced to another player. But what if there is no other player? The argument was whether it takes another touch to make a dribble a dribble. If A1 is alone, forgets and pushes the ball to the floor to start a second dribble, then remembers, is he allowed to run away from the ball and call a teammate to bail him out? The answer is no.

[mick]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think we all agree that it is not a violation if the ball is bounced to another player. But what if there is no other player? The argument was whether it takes another touch to make a dribble a dribble. If A1 is alone, forgets and pushes the ball to the floor to start a second dribble, then remembers, is he allowed to run away from the ball and call a teammate to bail him out? The answer is no.

You are just being silly.
Would you like to lock this thread, or should I.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mick

You are just being silly.
Would you like to lock this thread, or should I.

Whatever you think is best, mick. I have said all I have to say on this matter.
(much of it numerous times) Everything that I have posted on this subject comes straight out of the books. Am I reading the rule too literally? Perhaps.
But apparently I am not the only one. Sometimes it is comforting to have an ally in a high place. I found one.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

A very rough parallel would be a borderline foul. When does the foul occur? At the moment of contact. When do we know that marginal contact is a foul? When we see the contact put the other team at a disadvantage.

On a foul advantage/disadvantage is a consideration. On a violation it is not.