carry/illegal dribble

[cowbyfan1]

I'm sure this has been discussed at length before.
I know the "simple" carrying the ball violation where a player is dribbling and gets his hand underneath the ball to change directions with it.
My question is, a player dribbling the ball and the ball hits a plart of that players body.
Example
A. player A driving up court and the ball hits him in the hip so that in essence the players body is under the ball. Carry? Double dribble?

B. female player bringing the ball up court. Ball bounces high enough that the ball hits her in the chest and literally rolls off her breast, at which point she "continues" her dribble. DD? Carry?

Sorry but rule/case/and comic books are really poor on this.

[Larry]

Looks funny, something wrong, call it-----Don't! This happens alot in girls games because they have smaller hands. What I look for is, did the ball come to rest, meaning did the panels stop spinning while in the palm of hand, if so, you got carrying.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cowbyfan1

I know the "simple" carrying the ball violation where a player is dribbling and gets his hand underneath the ball to change directions with it.
My question is, a player dribbling the ball and the ball hits a plart of that players body.
Example
A. player A driving up court and the ball hits him in the hip so that in essence the players body is under the ball. Carry? Double dribble?

B. female player bringing the ball up court. Ball bounces high enough that the ball hits her in the chest and literally rolls off her breast, at which point she "continues" her dribble. DD? Carry?

All of your examples above are legal.They are fumbles.

The "carrying" violation that you are talking about could actually be either a travel or an illegal 2nd. dribble. It occurs when,in the official's opinion, the dribbler causes the ball to come to rest in his hand,thus ending his dribble.If the player now takes an extra,illegal step and commits a pivot foot violation,he is travelling. If,instead,he dribbles again after the ball has come to rest, then you have an illegal dribble.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

All of your examples above are legal.They are fumbles.

Actually, Jurassic, I've got some questions about this. My understanding is that once the ball hits the body, it has to hit the floor again before the player "bats" it with his hand. So it's not illegal in itself, but also isn't meaningless. Maybe a better way to say it is that the hit by the body counts as a "bat", and there can only be one "bat" per floor-bounce. Am I incorrect about this?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rainmaker
My understanding is that once the ball hits the body, it has to hit the floor again before the player "bats" it with his hand. So it's not illegal in itself, but also isn't meaningless. Maybe a better way to say it is that the hit by the body counts as a "bat", and there can only be one "bat" per floor-bounce. Am I incorrect about this?

Juulie, the rules are pretty clear on this. 9-5 says that "A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended. . ." So the relevant issues are: 1) what's a dribble, and 2) when does it end?

4-15-1 tells us that "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally striks the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times".

So bouncing the ball off of the body is not a bat, since a bat is with the hand(s). So bouncing off the body can't be a dribble.

As to (2) above, the dribble ends when the dribbler catches the ball, palms the ball, touches the ball with both hands simultaneously, or when an opponent bats the ball, or when the ball becomes dead. Since none of those things happens when the ball bounces off the dribbler's body, the dribble doesn't end, and s/he is free to continue dribbling.

In short, JR is r-r-r-r-r. . . JR is r-r-r-r-r. . . cough, cough. give me a second, I'll get it out. . . JR is r-right.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Juulie, the rules are pretty clear on this. 9-5 says that "A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended. . ." So the relevant issues are: 1) what's a dribble, and 2) when does it end?

4-15-1 tells us that "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally striks the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times".

So bouncing the ball off of the body is not a bat, since a bat is with the hand(s). So bouncing off the body can't be a dribble.

As to (2) above, the dribble ends when the dribbler catches the ball, palms the ball, touches the ball with both hands simultaneously, or when an opponent bats the ball, or when the ball becomes dead. Since none of those things happens when the ball bounces off the dribbler's body, the dribble doesn't end, and s/he is free to continue dribbling.

In short, JR is r-r-r-r-r. . . JR is r-r-r-r-r. . . cough, cough. give me a second, I'll get it out. . . JR is r-right.

Okay, so....

What about if a player bats the ball with the left hand, and then the right hand before it hits the floor? Isn't that illegal? I guess I'm seeing the body touch as a parallel.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Okay, so....

What about if a player bats the ball with the left hand, and then the right hand before it hits the floor? Isn't that illegal? I guess I'm seeing the body touch as a parallel.

Chuck probably has a job so he goes to sleep at a decent hour. Luckily I am not burdened by all this. As I see it a bat with the hand is a deliberate act as opposed to the ball bouncing off the body which I picture as occurring most often when the dribbler has lost control. The ball may then bounce off some other part of the body without penalty. The other thing that I see quite often which has not been mentioned in this thread is when the dribbler pins the ball briefly against his/her hip, then releases it and continues to dribble. This is a double dribble. Am I right, Chuck?

[zebracz]

The other thing that I see quite often which has not been mentioned in this thread is when the dribbler pins the ball briefly against his/her hip, then releases it and continues to dribble. This is a double dribble. Am I right, Chuck?

that was what my 1st Q was gonna be: I would have a carry, but it is a travel....so which is it?

What about if a player bats the ball with the left hand, and then the right hand before it hits the floor? Isn't that illegal?

This is an illegal dribble. The only ONE prob I see w/ this one is --is the player dribbling or did hejust grab/receive the pass? I mean, he could be in-stride, catch the pass in his left and bring both hands together and it ends up in his right hand before he dribbles. Now, who's gonna call that if he's running full sprint (or a little less) down the court? lol Unless the bat is intentional, right? How about not a bat, but a pass? that would be illegal dribble, right? But then, what if he's not running, but, rather standing and he the grabs pass w/ his left, puts in right and then dribbles; OR if he grabs pass w/ left, and passes to his right hand, to then dribble? Nothing if he's running, right?

What about if he's walking..nothing? It prob'ly really is elligal dribbling but........ what do ya'll do?

there can only be one "bat" per floor-bounce. Am I incorrect about this?

Rainmkr, I don't know about this, becuz look at how Dennis Rodman rebounded (but we are talking NFHS, too, tho), but I agree w/ Elias & JR--the dribble hasn't ended. The body is fair game, even though it "Looks funny, something wrong, call it" like Larry says. It may seem you get in trouble for NOT calling the "look-funny" ones, but I believe this is part of what seperates "good" from "best" official--that is, knowing when NOT to call 'em.

BTW, Larry, I like that tip: "did the panels stop spinning?" I'd never looked @ it that. I'll hafta try it. Thx.

goodluck ya'll...

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by zebracz
The other thing that I see quite often which has not been mentioned in this thread is when the dribbler pins the ball briefly against his/her hip, then releases it and continues to dribble. This is a double dribble. Am I right, Chuck?

Only if the ball comes to rest in the hands. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

that was what my 1st Q was gonna be: I would have a carry, but it is a travel....so which is it?

What difference does it really make? Heck, I think even the FED gets it confused in one of the cases. In general, if the violation was for "moving the pivot foot in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball", then call the travel. If it's for dribbling a second time, call the illegal dribble.

What about if a player bats the ball with the left hand, and then the right hand before it hits the floor? Isn't that illegal?

Yes, but I'm not sure you can prove it from the rules.

This is an illegal dribble. The only ONE prob I see w/ this one is --is the player dribbling or did hejust grab/receive the pass? I mean, he could be in-stride, catch the pass in his left and bring both hands together and it ends up in his right hand before he dribbles. Now, who's gonna call that if he's running full sprint (or a little less) down the court? lol Unless the bat is intentional, right? How about not a bat, but a pass? that would be illegal dribble, right? But then, what if he's not running, but, rather standing and he the grabs pass w/ his left, puts in right and then dribbles; OR if he grabs pass w/ left, and passes to his right hand, to then dribble? Nothing if he's running, right?

What about if he's walking..nothing? It prob'ly really is elligal dribbling but........ what do ya'll do?

As I read the play, I'd have nothing in either case. Catching the ball in the left hand and moving it to the right hand to start the dribble is nothing.

there can only be one "bat" per floor-bounce. Am I incorrect about this?

In general, that's true

Rainmkr, I don't know about this, becuz look at how Dennis Rodman rebounded (but we are talking NFHS, too, tho), but I agree w/ Elias & JR--the dribble hasn't ended. The body is fair game, even though it "Looks funny, something wrong, call it" like Larry says. It may seem you get in trouble for NOT calling the "look-funny" ones, but I believe this is part of what seperates "good" from "best" official--that is, knowing when NOT to call 'em.

"Tapping" the ball away from another player isn't the start of a dribble. There's a note to that effect in one of the relevant definitions.

[ChuckElias]

Thanks, Bob

[IAABO_Ref]

The batting of the ball from hand to hand the ball would have to come to rest in the hand to bat the ball to the other hand (I thinking that the ball is going across the players body and not downward). If the ball is going downward I would be more inclined to say is was a fumble.

Catching a pass in one hand and going to two hands then the other is nothing the dribble has not started yet (Casebook 4.15.4 situation E). A pass isn’t a dribble it doesn’t matter how you pass.

Remember the Fumble and Interrupted dribble rules.

[BktBallRef]

If the dribbler pins the ball to his/her hip, and it stops rotating, I have the end of the dribble.

As long as the ball conitunes to move, I have no problem with it.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref
A pass isn’t a dribble it doesn’t matter how you pass.

True, a pass is a pass and a dribble is a dribble. However, consider this. A1 catches the ball and does not use his dribble. A1 throws a long pass intended for A2. However, A2 doesn't see the pass. To prevent the ball from going OOB, A1 runs, catches up to the ball after it bounces and catches the ball.

Legal or not?

Well, it sure looks like a pass; but it was actually a dribble. So in this case an intended pass turned out to be a dribble. Just something to think about.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Yes, but I'm not sure you can prove it from the rules.

[/B]

Gotta agree with that. There's nothing really definitive anywhere in the book that says that it is a violation,as far as I know- but it IS a violation. There used to be a case book play many years ago saying that the double-touch was illegal, but that one is buried under the sands of time now.

[JeffTheRef]

That's what the ref had. Or was it two left brains?

Even now, seven years later, I can barely bring myself to think about it. My older boy's team lost in the state tournament one year in a game where a play exactly like the one being discussed had a real effect. Last year I watched the video for the first time. Kid (who shouldn't have been in the game) dribbled with his left, ball came up, hit his left forearm, bounced and hit his right forearm, fell to the floor, and he tried to keep dribbling it. The official signaled double dribble . . .

I argued with him later, that there was no basis in the rules . . . it just looked funny.

I am very interested in any casebook rulings from yesteryear, whatever anyone has. I just want to know before I die . . .