Illegal Dribble

[huskyz]

Had my first Varsity action of the season last night. Girls 'jamboree', eight teams, 4 halves.

Most of the ball wasn't too bad, but one thing came up that I thought I would post.

Girl from Team A is driving to the basket and turns to pass, girl from Team B swats the pass away and against the backboard. She then catches the ball off of the backboard, turns, and starts dribbling down the court.

There was no call made, but got me thinkin' later about the possibility of an illegal dribble. I know that the rule book says that throwing the ball against the opponents backboard constitutes the beginning of a dribble. I don't think that the blocking of the pass is the same as 'throwing' the ball against the backboard, but figured it would bring some discussion.

Same situation, but instead of the ball going off of the backboard, the girl from Team B hits it right to the floor, catches, it, then dribbles.

[mick]

Originally posted by huskyz
Had my first Varsity action of the season last night. Girls 'jamboree', eight teams, 4 halves.

Most of the ball wasn't too bad, but one thing came up that I thought I would post.

Girl from Team A is driving to the basket and turns to pass, girl from Team B swats the pass away and against the backboard. She then catches the ball off of the backboard, turns, and starts dribbling down the court.

There was no call made, but got me thinkin' later about the possibility of an illegal dribble. I know that the rule book says that throwing the ball against the opponents backboard constitutes the beginning of a dribble. I don't think that the blocking of the pass is the same as 'throwing' the ball against the backboard, but figured it would bring some discussion.

Same situation, but instead of the ball going off of the backboard, the girl from Team B hits it right to the floor, catches, it, then dribbles.

The "swatting of the ball" (batting) does not constitute player control.

REF: See Rule and Case book information regarding player control and team control.

[Adam]

I agree with the no-call. The analogy is apt, in that you wouldn't call a double dribble because it wasn't a dribble without player control. She didn't establish player control during the bat.
Adam

[nine01c]

I'll give this one a try. I think what you need to do is determine if the defensive player ever had player control of the ball. In both examples, it sounds like a swat, and no control. So when it hits the floor, an offical, or the opponent's backboard, it was not the beginning of a dribble. Thus, that player may retreive the ball, hold it, then begin a dribble. I picture this like a player tipping a pass between two opponents. He tips it toward the division line in an attempt to steal it, then runs and picks it up, holds, then dribbles. Of course it is legal because he did not have control.

Rule 4-15-4 (note 2) explains whan a player is NOT dribbling.

[theboys]

I think an even more difficult call to make is the pass that bounces off the receiver's hand, hits the floor, then is caught by the receiver. The difficult part is whether to call a double dribble when the ball handler then puts the ball on the floor and takes off.

[Adam]

When in doubt, it's a fumble. Legal play. It's usually more difficult (scary) for the player than for the ref.

[nine01c]

The rule noted above, 4-15-4 (note 2) specifically addresses this situation. A missed pass (rebounding off receiver's hand) is not a dribble.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by theboys
I think an even more difficult call to make is the pass that bounces off the receiver's hand, hits the floor, then is caught by the receiver. The difficult part is whether to call a double dribble when the ball handler then puts the ball on the floor and takes off.

This should be an easy call, but many refs use the "when in doubt, it's a dribble" mentality. It's always important to remember that a ball hitting the floor is not the same thing as a dribble. And most offensive players try to catch then dribble, so a pass going off hands and to the floor is almost always a fumble - it should clearly be a dribble to be ruled as such.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
And most offensive players try to catch then dribble, so a pass going off hands and to the floor is almost always a fumble - it should clearly be a dribble to be ruled as such.

Unless they then bat it to the floor again.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

This should be an easy call, but many refs use the "when in doubt, it's a dribble" mentality. It's always important to remember that a ball hitting the floor is not the same thing as a dribble. And most offensive players try to catch then dribble, so a pass going off hands and to the floor is almost always a fumble - it should clearly be a dribble to be ruled as such.

A lot of this is fed by the mistaken impression fans and coaches have of the rules. Some of them become referees and continue to have this mistaken impression, I think.

Two plays last night:

(1) Pass to a player driving down the lane. Ball hits players hands and it takes four steps for him to (finally) gain control. Looked ugly as can be. Home coach wanted a travel, home fans wanted a travel, but no whistle. Coach asked me while I was passing by and I explained that you can't have traveling without possession.

(2) Pass in to a post player who momentarily loses control of the ball. Without this loss of control, it WOULD'VE been a travel as he dragged his "pivot" foot. But the loss of possession eliminated the pivot foot or any chance of a travel call. I was almost sucked in on this one as the loss of possession was very quick and very slight, but there nonetheless. No call. Same reaction from crowd and coach.

Rich

[Adam]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
(1) Pass to a player driving down the lane. Ball hits players hands and it takes four steps for him to (finally) gain control. Looked ugly as can be. Home coach wanted a travel, home fans wanted a travel, but no whistle. Coach asked me while I was passing by and I explained that you can't have traveling without possession.
Rich [/B]

By this time he was OOB, thought, right?

[mick]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
...I explained that you can't have traveling without possession.

Is this any easier for a coach to understand?

Can't be traveling without control.

mick

[Rich]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

By this time he was OOB, thought, right? [/B]

Cr@p! That's right, I *am* supposed to watch his feet this year, right? It can't be a charge if he's out of bounds. Whoops, wrong thread.

Rich

[Nevadaref]

Is it a violation if the dribbler strikes the ball with his hand twice before it hits the floor? I am not talking about a situation like the casebook where the ball is batted over someone's head and then the player touches it again before allowing it to strike the floor.
In this case the dribbler pushes the ball toward the floor and it breaks contact with his hand, but before it reaches the floor, he then reaches down and touches the ball a second time and changes the angle of the dribble. In short, the dribbler never causes the ball to come to rest, since it is always moving downward, but does change the left to right movement of the ball as it descends.
A rule reference would be nice, too.

[zebra44]

TWEET!! Nevadaref, you are guilty of a double post! Blue ball going this way!