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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 12:18pm
Ch1town
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These wierdo plays seem to happen mainly in wreck games? Help me out with these please.

1. B1 slaps the ball away from the dribbler A1 in the frontcourt near the sideline. B1 jumps out of bounds tips the ball back onto the court & is the first to touch after establishing in bound status… violation or not? We had violation.

2. On the jump ball to start the game A5 gently taps once, the ball drops straight down, B1 (non-jumper) reaches into the circle & gains control… violation or not? My partner (chopping) had violation.

3. A5 goes for an offensive rebound but contacts B5 from behind in the process. Ruling: "push" or over-the-back as the fans like to say so we go the other way on the endline. The in-bounds pass goes out of bounds untouched on the sideline past half court. Before we administer the throw-in (on the same endline) the table says that A5s foul was the 7th team.
a. Is that correctable?
b. Do we shoot 1 & 1 even though the team just threw the ball away??
c. Would the lane be cleared & Team A in bounding on the same endline
where Team B turned it over?
My partner ruled that we will shoot 1 & 1 with players on the lane.


I had 7 very competitive Varsity ballgames at Vernes camp last week end & not one single wierdo play, I had four mens comp games @ DU last nite (one forfeit) and I get all this.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 12:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
1. B1 slaps the ball away from the dribbler A1 in the frontcourt near the sideline. B1 jumps out of bounds tips the ball back onto the court & is the first to touch after establishing in bound status… violation or not? We had violation.
Are you saying that B1 was out of bounds when touching the ball?

If that is not what you are saying and B1 was actually on the court, this would not be a violation. This is not football, all you have to do is come back in and you can touch any ball in bounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
2. On the jump ball to start the game A5 gently taps once, the ball drops straight down, B1 (non-jumper) reaches into the circle & gains control… violation or not? My partner (chopping) had violation.
Violation for what specifically? It is not illegal for a non-jumper to gain possession anywhere on the court after a jump ball?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
3. A5 goes for an offensive rebound but contacts B5 from behind in the process. Ruling: "push" or over-the-back as the fans like to say so we go the other way on the endline. The in-bounds pass goes out of bounds untouched on the sideline past half court. Before we administer the throw-in (on the same endline) the table says that A5s foul was the 7th team.
a. Is that correctable?
b. Do we shoot 1 & 1 even though the team just threw the ball away??
c. Would the lane be cleared & Team A in bounding on the same endline
where Team B turned it over?
My partner ruled that we will shoot 1 & 1 with players on the lane.
Yes this is correctable; this took place within the time frame. You shoot the 1 and 1 with the lane clear. Then you bring the ball back to spot where you noticed the error. So the ball is brought to the end line with Team A in possession.

It sounds like you let your partner run things. If these were real games you could get in trouble with them, you got to know these rules. Know you will know and you will likely own those rules for now on.

Peace
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 12:37pm
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[QUOTE=Ch1town]These wierdo plays seem to happen mainly in wreck games? Help me out with these please.

1. B1 slaps the ball away from the dribbler A1 in the frontcourt near the sideline. B1 jumps out of bounds tips the ball back onto the court & is the first to touch after establishing in bound status… violation or not? We had violation. If momentum took them out and they re-established themselves. It is legal


2. On the jump ball to start the game A5 gently taps once, the ball drops straight down, B1 (non-jumper) reaches into the circle & gains control… violation or not? My partner (chopping) had violation.

If it hits the floor. I got nothing Play on.


3. A5 goes for an offensive rebound but contacts B5 from behind in the process. Ruling: "push" or over-the-back as the fans like to say so we go the other way on the endline. The in-bounds pass goes out of bounds untouched on the sideline past half court. Before we administer the throw-in (on the same endline) the table says that A5s foul was the 7th team.
a. Is that correctable? Yes!!

b. Do we shoot 1 & 1 even though the team just threw the ball away?? Yes,


c. Would the lane be cleared & Team A in bounding on the same endline
where Team B turned it over? Yes!!!
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 12:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
1. B1 slaps the ball away from the dribbler A1 in the frontcourt near the sideline. B1 jumps out of bounds tips the ball back onto the court & is the first to touch after establishing in bound status… violation or not? We had violation.

2. On the jump ball to start the game A5 gently taps once, the ball drops straight down, B1 (non-jumper) reaches into the circle & gains control… violation or not? My partner (chopping) had violation.

3. A5 goes for an offensive rebound but contacts B5 from behind in the process. Ruling: "push" or over-the-back as the fans like to say so we go the other way on the endline. The in-bounds pass goes out of bounds untouched on the sideline past half court. Before we administer the throw-in (on the same endline) the table says that A5s foul was the 7th team.
a. Is that correctable?
b. Do we shoot 1 & 1 even though the team just threw the ball away??
c. Would the lane be cleared & Team A in bounding on the same endline
where Team B turned it over?
My partner ruled that we will shoot 1 & 1 with players on the lane.

As JRut said, your partner was 3 for 3. All wrong.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 12:41pm
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[QUOTE=truerookie]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town

2. On the jump ball to start the game A5 gently taps once, the ball drops straight down, B1 (non-jumper) reaches into the circle & gains control… violation or not? My partner (chopping) had violation.

If it hits the floor. I got nothing Play on.

Why would the ball have to hit the floor? Jump ball restrictions for non-jumpers end when the ball is touched by one of the jumpers. NFHS rule 6-3-5.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 12:45pm
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[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
Why would the ball have to hit the floor? Jump ball restrictions for non-jumpers end when the ball is touched by one of the jumpers. NFHS rule 6-3-5.
Correct!! My attempt was to inform OP that once it was touch a non-jumper could retrieve it. It did not come across as I intended.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 12:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
These wierdo plays seem to happen mainly in wreck games? Help me out with these please.

1. B1 slaps the ball away from the dribbler A1 in the frontcourt near the sideline. B1 jumps out of bounds tips the ball back onto the court & is the first to touch after establishing in bound status… violation or not? We had violation.
Why a violation? The player had in bound status. You are punishing a good defensive action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
2. On the jump ball to start the game A5 gently taps once, the ball drops straight down, B1 (non-jumper) reaches into the circle & gains control… violation or not? My partner (chopping) had violation.
I'll answer by FIBA rules, but I believe that Fed and NCAA are pretty much the same:
12.2.8 No part of a non-jumper's body may be on or over the circle line (cylinder) before the ball has been tapped.
So, unless B1 reached in before the tap, it wasn't a violation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
3. A5 goes for an offensive rebound but contacts B5 from behind in the process. Ruling: "push" or over-the-back as the fans like to say so we go the other way on the endline. The in-bounds pass goes out of bounds untouched on the sideline past half court. Before we administer the throw-in (on the same endline) the table says that A5s foul was the 7th team.
a. Is that correctable?
b. Do we shoot 1 & 1 even though the team just threw the ball away??
c. Would the lane be cleared & Team A in bounding on the same endline
where Team B turned it over?
My partner ruled that we will shoot 1 & 1 with players on the lane.
The error was still correctable, because the clock didn't start. Since team A did not get possession of the ball, play should resume normally after the free throws.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 01:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
1. B1 slaps the ball away from the dribbler A1 in the frontcourt near the sideline. B1 jumps out of bounds tips the ball back onto the court & is the first to touch after establishing in bound status… violation or not? We had violation. If momentum took them out and they re-established themselves. It is legal
What does momentum have to do with this play?
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 01:29pm
Ch1town
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Appreciate all the feedback! I love this forum!

On the going out & coming back in to retrieve the ball play, my partner said something about last to touch, first to touch?? Help me out, what did he really mean?

On the jump ball play, I knew that it was wrong because the jumpers didn't obtain the ball & the jump began when it left my hand & ended when A5 gently tapped it.

As for the correctable error, had the table let us know it was 7 in the first place it would've been no problem. I really thought on correctable errors that we would indeed go back to where we were when we learned of the mistake. I just think it gives the wrong impression for officials to disagree publicly on the court. So I let some things ride that I shouldn't have


JRut: Yeah, I did let my partner run things all night long.
He was the senior guy, a transfer from ATL who claimed to have had worked D2 & JUCO. My first time meeting him & all, his mechanics were so crisp & his reporting was very, very smooth so I didn't second guess much of anything he said... well except that jump ball situation & correctable error but I kept that to myself. Didn't want the older guy thinking I was some young arrogant punk. Last time a partner & I disagreed, we went to the books at halftime & that only angered him more & made for an extra-long evening.
For the record, last season was my first being patched & working varsity level games, so I got teamed up with true vets who guided me through, but yeah you're right, I need to KNOW those rules. When we get our new books in the mail, I'll be on it!!

JR: From the knowledge I soaked up last weekend I will have to disagree & unfortunately rephrase that "we as a crew went 3 for 3. All wrong."
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 01:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
1) On the going out & coming back in to retrieve the ball play, my partner said something about last to touch, first to touch?? Help me out, what did he really mean?

2)JR: From the knowledge I soaked up last weekend I will have to disagree & unfortunately rephrase that "we as a crew went 3 for 3. All wrong."
1) He meant that he doesn't really know or understand the rule.

2) Great comment. And correct also. We collectively take any credit coming, and we also collectively share any blame coming.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 01:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
JRut: Yeah, I did let my partner run things all night long.
He was the senior guy, a transfer from ATL who claimed to have had worked D2 & JUCO. My first time meeting him & all, his mechanics were so crisp & his reporting was very, very smooth so I didn't second guess much of anything he said... well except that jump ball situation & correctable error but I kept that to myself. Didn't want the older guy thinking I was some young arrogant punk. Last time a partner & I disagreed, we went to the books at halftime & that only angered him more & made for an extra-long evening.
For the record, last season was my first being patched & working varsity level games, so I got teamed up with true vets who guided me through, but yeah you're right, I need to KNOW those rules. When we get our new books in the mail, I'll be on it!!
It is common for officials to transfer from one area to another and say they worked a particular level. Do not get caught up into that. Also working D2 or JUCO does not make you a rules expert, it just means you worked a level you were assigned. For all you know the competition was not that high and he was asked to work that level based on his availability rather than his pure ability. That is a guess but it could be somewhat true. I have worked college games with people that cannot work a decent HS game. You will learn that as time goes on and you see guys come and go in and out of your area.

Now if you knew a mistake was being made by an official, then you should go to that official and insist you apply the rules properly or that "we" might have made a mistake. If the calling official insists on doing the wrong thing, then at least when the chips fall you can say you did what you did what you could to convince them. In the situation where the player was out of bounds and then back in bounds, it is possible you would have no idea why your partner called a violation. There are a couple of explanations that would make this a violation but based on your specific question it would not be. If you are working varsity, you have to learn to "step up" to a veteran when things are clearly wrong. You will not be given a pass if something is applied wrong and you have knowledge about it. It will affect your career.

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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 02:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Also working D2 or JUCO does not make you a rules expert, it just means you worked a level you were assigned. For all you know the competition was not that high and he was asked to work that level based on his availability rather than his pure ability. That is a guess but it could be somewhat true. I have worked college games with people that cannot work a decent HS game. You will learn that as time goes on and you see guys come and go in and out of your area.
Agree completely. In some areas, due to availability issues and the sheer number of schools/games, officials can work D2 or D3 and JUCO ball before they'll ever get a sniff of a good high school game. In other areas, you might have to prove yourself as a good high school official before you can get a sniff of JUCO/D2,3 ball. Officials should be judged on the job that they can do, not their resume.

And.....I've also seen some excellent officials who work rec leagues solely because that is all that they are basically interested in. That doesn't stop them from learning the rules and proper mechanics, and how to apply both, as well as how to manage a game. Iow, all rec league officials can't be labeled as Old School. They should be judged on the job that they do also.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 02:11pm.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 02:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town

1. B1 slaps the ball away from the dribbler A1 in the frontcourt near the sideline. B1 jumps out of bounds tips the ball back onto the court & is the first to touch after establishing in bound status… violation or not? We had violation.
Violation when B1 contacts the ball, IF B1 had established OOB before, but don't wait for B1 to return to the court before whistling this. Not clear to me from your post if he was merely beyond the plane of the OOB line or had touched the floor OOB before jumping to tip the ball.

"First to touch" is a common misapplication of a football rule to basketball, as has been pointed out. All that matters here is in bound or OOB status when the ball is touched.
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 02:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
JRut: Yeah, I did let my partner run things all night long.
He was the senior guy, a transfer from ATL who claimed to have had worked D2 & JUCO.
What this could mean is that he's done one or two of each, and in those situations the assignor put him with vets who wouldn't let him go far wrong. But that doesn't mean he's got a clue. The next time someone says they've worked this level, ask when was the last one, and if they were the R. I'd bet a fair amount of donuts this guys NEVER been the R in a college game!
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Old Tue Jun 05, 2007, 02:40pm
Ch1town
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JRut: Gotcha! I will "step up" next time the opportunity presents itself instead of letting the crew crash & burn. And definately will get my head deep into the books, as I NEED to KNOW the rules in those situations like you said. I'm truly glad we are able to communicate now, because it's obvious that you have an abundance of wisdom to share with someone like myself.

So I publicly apologize for being over-sensitive with you earlier in the year.
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