Long Time Lurker, First Time Poster

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Nevada
Okay having reread your rule cites, I see were you come up with the AP to reset play if you blew the whistle without possession / team control it does make some sense as to the determination that you came to.
I still do not agree with it - I think it a terrible outcome for the offense committed by the timer - but I find nothing that proves you wrong in the NFHS rules based blowing the ball dead without possession / team control being established.

That is the problem.

The whistle should not have been blown until possession/team control had been established,(this would not matter in NCAA as there is team control on the throw in), once team control is established, the whistle is blown, the timers mistake is rectified by resetting the clock or taking time off and the ball is put inbounds nearest the spot where the whistle blew. Because there is Team control the AP is out of the question.

Ok, we pretty much agree on this one. I've said numerous times that the current NFHS rules cover this poorly, and that if one were to follow the letter of the law in this case it could be grossly unfair. However, that consideration doesn't change what the actual rule is, which is what I have gone to great lengths to point out during this thread. Sadly, the applicable NFHS rule seems to be 6-4-3e, which says to go to the AP arrow.

You add a nice thought about the NCAA that since there is team control during the throw-in, this isn't a problem. That is one way that the NFHS could go to fix this. Perhaps they will make that change. It has been suggested for the past couple of years, since the NCAA did it.

However, you are incorrect under NCAA rules when you say that "the ball is put inbounds nearest the spot" following the stoppage. The NCAA released a clarification recently that said that the game resumes with a new throw-in by the same team from the original throw-in location.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sadly, the applicable NFHS rule seems to be 6-4-3e, which says to go to the AP arrow.

The only thing that's sad is your screwy interpretation. You're Old School with a rule book.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The only thing that's sad is your screwy interpretation. You're Old School with a rule book.

JR:

1) Boy are you up early.

2) NevadaRef sites the correct rule. I agree that it is not the best way to handle the situation, that is why I stated in my earlier post, that since the only thing that is happening is a Timer's error is to what until the throw-in is over and then correct the clock.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR:

NevadaRef sites the correct rule.

Well, Mark, I'd really, really like to be there when you and Nevada call that one. I can pretty much predict what's gonna happen.

State championship game. Team A has the ball OOB on it's endline with 5 seconds to go in the game, down 1. A1 rolls the ball up court. Just before it's touched, MTD Sr. blows his whistle. The R, Nevada, says we now have to go to the arrow. Whoopsie....team B has the arrow. Nevada/Mtd. Sr. now give team B the ball for a throw-in.

I can almost guarantee that you'll have to now unload the team A head coach via the 2-"T" route. Maybe an A assistant coach or two also, seeing that there's no way that they can win the game now anyway. I mean, why should the coach be mad? They had a throw-in, never finished the throw-in, never violated or did anything wrong, but you're giving the other team the ball. Well, I certainly hope that game management has provided a lot of security also because they're sureasheck gonna need it for the team A fanboys.

The good thing though is that you both can now claim that you were a part of history in your last game, because that game will never be forgotten.

I've seen some ridiculous interpretations made on this forum over the years, but I really think that this one might be the topper. I give it 5 Old Schools.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, Mark, I'd really, really like to be there when you and Nevada call that one. I can pretty much predict what's gonna happen.

State championship game. Team A has the ball OOB on it's endline with 5 seconds to go in the game, down 1. A1 rolls the ball up court. Just before it's touched, MTD Sr. blows his whistle. The R, Nevada, says we now have to go to the arrow. Whoopsie....team B has the arrow. Nevada/Mtd. Sr. now give team B the ball for a throw-in.

I can almost guarantee that you'll have to now unload the team A head coach via the 2-"T" route. Maybe an A assistant coach or two also, seeing that there's no way that they can win the game now anyway. I mean, why should the coach be mad? They had a throw-in, never finished the throw-in, never violated or did anything wrong, but you're giving the other team the ball. Well, I certainly hope that game management has provided a lot of security also because they're sureasheck gonna need it for the team A fanboys.

The good thing though is that you both can now claim that you were a part of history in your last game, because that game will never be forgotten.

I've seen some ridiculous interpretations made on this forum over the years, but I really think that this one might be the topper. I give it 5 Old Schools.

JR:

Go back and read my first post. I am not going to sound my whistle until A2 picks up the ball. And then I am going to correct the clock by taking one second off the clock and then give the ball to Team A nearest the spot that
A2 picked up the ball.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR:

Go back and read my first post. I am not going to sound my whistle until A2 picks up the ball. And then I am going to correct the clock by taking one second off the clock and then give the ball to Team A nearest the spot that
A2 picked up the ball.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, go back and read Nevada's post. He's saying that he'll go with the arrow if the whistle is blown BEFORE the ball is touched. Iow, without anyone touching the ball in-bounds on that throw-in, he's going to give the defense the ball if they've got the arrow.That's what you agreed with.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Mark, go back and read Nevada's post. He's saying that he'll go with the arrow if the whistle is blown BEFORE the ball is touched. Iow, without anyone touching the ball in-bounds on that throw-in, he's going to give the defense the ball if they've got the arrow.That's what you agreed with.

JR:

I agreed that NevadeRef quoted the correct rules reference if one makes the ball dead before the throw-in ended. I am sorry if I didn't make myself more clear.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR:

I agreed that NevadeRef quoted the correct rules reference if one makes the ball dead before the throw-in ended. I am sorry if I didn't make myself more clear.

MTD, Sr.

And I'll stick with my assessment that Nevada and your interpretation might be the goofiest and most ridiculous one ever made on this forum. It's Old Schoolian in scope.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

JR:

I have not had any PM's with NevadaRef about this play but I think that all of us will agree on the following items:

1) The rules state that Team A has five (5) seconds to release the ball during the throw-in such that it then crosses the throw-in boundary and is subsequently touched by another player on the court either inbounds or out-of-bounds. The rules allow for Team A to release the ball such that it rules up the court in the manner that Team A was attempting in the situation at the start of this thread.

2) When the game officials, i.e., court officials or table officials, make a mistake it is the responsibility of the court officials to make sure that neither team is put at a disadvantage because of the officials' mistake.

3) Team A had complied with the first part of the throw-in rules. It had released the ball on a throw-in such that it then crossed the throw-in boundaryl The throw-in does not end until one of two things happen: (1) The ball is touched by another player on the court either inbounds or out-of-bounds; or (2) The ball went out-of-bounds without being touched by a player on the court either inbounds or out-of-bounds.

3) At some point during Team A's throw-in the Timer incorrectly started the clock too soon. The Timer's mistake does not cause the ball to become dead.

4) The question that was posed was that if the court officials cause the ball to become dead before the throw-in ends, how is the ball put back into play after the clock is corrected.

5) NFHS R6-S4-A3e states: Alternating-possession throw-ins hsall be from the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the ball was located. An alternating-possession Throw-in shall result when: The ball becomes dead when neither team is in conrrol and no goal, infraction nor end of quarter/extra period is involved.

6) Lets forget that this play actually happened and treat it as a question on a rules examination. Bob Jenkins in his very first post in this thread (Mar. 21/Wed.(09:32am, 2007) said: "Inadvertant whistle with no team in control. Go to the arrow." I do not agree that this was an inadvertant whistle, but going to the AP Arrow is correct per NFHS R6-S4-A3e.

7) Lets go back to the real world now. What is the best way to handle this situation? Do not make the ball dead until after the ball one of the following things has happened after the throw-in has ended: (1) A player from either Team A or Team B has established player control; (2) Team A has committed a throw-in violation; or (3) The throw-in has ended and the ball as then gone out-of-bounds with neither team in control of the ball. I am sure that we can all think of a few other situation to add to the three that I just mentioned, but now the officials can correct the clock and restart play.

8) I agree that if the officials make the ball dead before the throw-in ends, applying NFHS R4-S4-A3e could put Team A at a disadvantage even if the AP Arrow favors Team A. That is it is so important for the officials to have game awareness. I can understand the pressure of a state championship game with players and coaches screaming at the officials that the clock is running when it is not supposed to be running, but that is game awareness is required.

9) If the officials stop the game before the throw-in ends and wants to give the ball back to Team A when the AP Arrow favors Team B and B-HC is saying in the conference among the court officials and head coaches that his team should get the ball because of NFHS NFHS R4-S4-A3e, how do the court officials expain their decision to give the ball back to Team A.

10) I guess, my advice is to not let oneself get into the position. I am not going to stop play until after the throw-in ends.

JR, I understand your position and I think that we agree that the rule as written is not good for the situation is this thread.

Maybe we should be working to get the NFHS rule more in line with the NCAA rule.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR:

JR, I understand your position and I think that we agree that the rule as written is not good for the situation is this thread.

Um, no, Mark, I completely disagree with both you and the Emperor of Illogic that the rule applies in the first place. You're both trying to apply a rule that's got nothing to do with play being discussed imo. Giving the other team the ball on a throw-in that was never completed because of a timing error might just be the dumbest interpretation ever made on this forum. Ever. It's just completely ridiculous.

Believe me, we ain't ever gonna agree on this one.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Mark, go back and read Nevada's post. He's saying that he'll go with the arrow if the whistle is blown BEFORE the ball is touched. Iow, without anyone touching the ball in-bounds on that throw-in, he's going to give the defense the ball if they've got the arrow.That's what you agreed with.

WRONG! As you usually are when you get into this crabby, "no-one-can-tell-me-anything" mood. Otherwise, you're normally quite good.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

(Note: Until the rules are changed, I'm ruling that the situation in the OP IS an "interrupted game" and applying the POI rule.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It is unfortunate, but I believe that the rule which governs this play is 6-4-3e. That describes the conditions under which the ball became dead. That rule says to use the AP arrow at the location of the ball.

See the problem?

I see the problem. You don't. If the thrower was still holding the ball OOB when the clock started, and the whistle then went off before the ball even left the thrower's hands, you'd still give it to the other team if they had the arrow under your goofy interpretation.

Completely freaking ridiculous!

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the thrower was still holding the ball OOB when the clock started, and the whistle then went off before the ball even left the thrower's hands, you'd still give it to the other team if they had the arrow ...

Touche'

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I see the problem. You don't. If the thrower was still holding the ball OOB when the clock started, and the whistle then went off before the ball even left the thrower's hands, you'd still give it to the other team if they had the arrow under your goofy interpretation.

Completely freaking ridiculous!

That's true, but it's not MY interpretation. That is the way the rules currently read. I agree that result is ridiculous.

However, what is even more ridiculous is YOU stating that, but failing to cite some other rule which governs that situation. You can't do it because you know that there isn't another one that applies. You could only point to 2-3.

This is a clear gap in the NFHS rules and should be fixed.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I see the problem. You don't. If the thrower was still holding the ball OOB when the clock started, and the whistle then went off before the ball even left the thrower's hands, you'd still give it to the other team if they had the arrow under your goofy interpretation.

Completely freaking ridiculous!

JR:

By rule, yes. Am I going to by rule? No. Why? Easy, about five to seven years ago (maybe more), the NFHS change way how the game was to be restarted after a correctable error with regard to unawarded free throws. Before this rule change, i.e., if A1 was to receive free throws for a common foul by B1 and instead Team A was awarded a throw-in and the correctable error was discovered during the allowabe time limit, the free three would be awarded as a Point-of-Interuption. That meant if the correctable error was discovered while the ball was live, say, just after Team A had inbounded the ball, A1 would be awarded his free throws and then Team A would get the ball for a throw-in. That also meant if the correctable error was discovered while a player for Team A was in possession of the ball for the throw-in that had been awarded for B1's common foul inplace of the unawarded free throw for B1's foul, Team A should get the ball again for a throw-in after A1 had shot his free throws. BUT, I do not know of any official, including me that would handle a correctable error that was discovered while a player for Team A was in possession of the ball for the throw-in.

Once again, the key here is game awareness by the officials.

MTD, Sr.