Long Time Lurker, First Time Poster

[SoInZebra]

Greetings all - had a play last weekend that I would like some opinions on:

After a TO, Team A (down by 6) is inbounding the ball on the endline after a made basket with 32.3 seconds in the 4th QTR. A1 throws the ball in and A2 allows it to bounce/roll to about midcourt without touching it in an attempt to keep the clock stopped.

As soon as I realize that A2 has not touched the ball I glance up and see the clock running. When I kill the play the ball is roughly at the division line. After instructing the timer to put 32.3 back up I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on where to inbound the ball.

For the record I inbounded at half court with 32.3 on the clock because that was the location of the live ball when I stopped play to fix the timing error and I could see Team B's coach salivating over the opportunity to put the ball on the endline and slap a press on, in effect allowing the timing error to deny Team A the precious 2 or 3 seconds it earned on the original inbound.

[SmokeEater]

I don't know if that is correct by the rules, but it sounds good to me.

[BktBallRef]

There's no concensus on this play. Some will tell you to do what you did. Others will tell you to take the ball back to the endline. I know of no case play or interp that addresses it.

One question. After the TO, Team B didn't press. Why do you think that he's suddenly going to press now? And more importantly, why would you care? That's not our concern.

Welcome to the forum.

[AFHusker]

I would say it should go back to the endline. My initial thought to back this up is if the ball goes OOB without being touched on a throw-in, it goes back to the spot of the throw-in.

[Adam]

But that would be on an offensive throwin violation. This isn't that. The live ball had reached the division line without being touched. The offense had legally advanced the ball that far, and should have had the full 32.3 seconds from that point.
Like BktBallRef says, it fits outside the scope of things the Fed tells us how to fix. This one takes a little thinking outside the box.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

But that would be on an offensive throwin violation. This isn't that. The live ball had reached the division line without being touched. The offense had legally advanced the ball that far, and should have had the full 32.3 seconds from that point.
Like BktBallRef says, it fits outside the scope of things the Fed tells us how to fix. This one takes a little thinking outside the box.

If an inadvertent whistle occurs while Team A is passing the ball doesn't the ensuing throw-in go back to the spot nearest where the last pass came from?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If an inadvertent whistle occurs while Team A is passing the ball doesn't the ensuing throw-in go back to the spot nearest where the last pass came from?

There's no real clear guidance on that, BNR. The rule says that the POI is "a free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such." (4-36-2b)

So here, we have a stoppage during a throw-in, but not when the thrower is holding the ball. So what does the rule tell us to do? It doesn't!! If there were team control, then you'd put it in play at the spot closest to the location of the ball (4-36-2a). But, as we all know, there's no team control during the throw-in.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SoInZebra

As soon as I realize that A2 has not touched the ball I glance up and see the clock running. When I kill the play the ball is roughly at the division line.

Inadvertant whistle with no team in control. Go to the arrow.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Inadvertant whistle with no team in control. Go to the arrow.

I see the smilie, but please be sure to make it very clear that this is a joke. Do NOT go to the arrow in this situation!!!

This is an inadvertent whistle during a throw-in. The POI is a throw-in to the team who is making the throw-in.

[NewNCref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

This is an inadvertent whistle during a throw-in. The POI is a throw-in to the team who is making the throw-in.

I disagree. If it was an IW, then you would have to go with the AP as there is no team control. HOWEVER, he killed the play because the clock started improperly, so I don't consider that an IW.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by NewNCref

I disagree. If it was an IW, then you would have to go with the AP as there is no team control. HOWEVER, he killed the play because the clock started improperly, so I don't consider that an IW.

While I agree that it's not an IW, per se, Scrapper is correct as to what to do when an IW occurs.

Take a look at 4-36-2 (POI rule) and 4-42-5.

[Scrapper1]

Interesting point that it is not an official's "accidental whistle". It's definitely on purpose to correct the timing mistake. However, without any other rule to go by, I would continue using the POI rule and give the throw-in to the team that had just made the throw-in.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by NewNCref[B

]I disagree. If it was an IW, then you would have to go with the AP as there is no team control. [/B] HOWEVER, he killed the play because the clock started improperly, so I don't consider that an IW.

You are correct that there is no team control during the throw in, but would be incorrect in this situation of going to the AP should an IW happen in the OP's situation. Team-A coming out of a time-out after a made basket..... If the IW happens here, the ball goes back to to Team A. See Caseplay 7.5.4. See the ruling for play D.

[NewNCref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

You are correct that there is no team control during the throw in, but would be incorrect in this situation of going to the AP should an IW happen in the OP's situation. Team-A coming out of a time-out after a made basket..... If the IW happens here, the ball goes back to to Team A. See Caseplay 7.5.4. See the ruling for play D.

I stand corrected! Thanks Joe and Mark. Good thing I've never had to make this call before!

Here's another thought I'd like to see what you guys think about, if there's no press on, why not just wait until he touches the ball, blow it dead, and reset the clock to the correct time, and then there's no question about where to give him the ball. Then again, that could be risky if the defense is anywhere near the ball or if Jon Diebler is playing defense.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SoInZebra

Greetings all - had a play last weekend that I would like some opinions on:

After a TO, Team A (down by 6) is inbounding the ball on the endline after a made basket with 32.3 seconds in the 4th QTR. A1 throws the ball in and A2 allows it to bounce/roll to about midcourt without touching it in an attempt to keep the clock stopped.

As soon as I realize that A2 has not touched the ball I glance up and see the clock running. When I kill the play the ball is roughly at the division line. After instructing the timer to put 32.3 back up I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on where to inbound the ball.

For the record I inbounded at half court with 32.3 on the clock because that was the location of the live ball when I stopped play to fix the timing error and I could see Team B's coach salivating over the opportunity to put the ball on the endline and slap a press on, in effect allowing the timing error to deny Team A the precious 2 or 3 seconds it earned on the original inbound.

I happen to believe that this play IS covered by the current NFHS rules, unfortunately quite poorly.

The pertinent rules are:

DEAD BALL
6-7-5 The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
. . . An official's whistle is blown

ALTERNATING POSSESSION
6-4-3 . . . Alternating-possession throw-ins shall be from the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the ball was located. An alternating-possession throw-in shall result when:
e. The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved.

CONTROL, PLAYER AND TEAM
4-12-6 . . . Neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball, throw-in, a jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

BALL LOCATION,
4-4-3 . . . A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

Therefore, by the current wording of the NFHS rules, this play results in an AP throw-in from the nearest OOB spot to where the ball last contacted the floor. I'll state now that I believe that this is an absolutely horrible outcome, but it is the current application of the rules. In my opinion, any official who did it that way would need a police escort out of the gym, if the arrow happened to favor the defense. So what else can we do?

What should have been done two years ago when the definition of POI was added is that the sentence from 6-4-3e should have been moved into 4-36-1. It is very similar to an interrupted game, but not exactly the same. The two should be treated in the same manner though. (Note: Until the rules are changed, I'm ruling that the situation in the OP IS an "interrupted game" and applying the POI rule.)

What this would do is allow the POI sequence to properly be applied to this situation. 4-36-2a would be bypassed as there is no team control, but 4-36-2b would take precedence over 4-36-2c, since the stoppage occurred DURING the throw-in, thus the AP arrow would not need to be used. (However, if the ball had been tapped or deflected on the court, but the whistle sounded prior to control being established, then 4-36-2c would take effect.)

RULE 4, SECTION 36 POINT OF INTERRUPTION
ART. 1 . . . Method of resuming play due to an official's accidental whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6, a double personal, double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and 4-19-10. [The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, (time-out,) nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved.]
ART. 2 …Play shall be resumed by one of the following:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a spot nearest to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. An alternating-possession throw-in when the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved.

Applying this would give the ball back to the throwing team at the original throw-in location because 4-36-2b does NOT say ball location. A casebook play could be added to clarify this.

I'll pass this along to my fellow NV official who is on the NFHS rules committee. The wording needs some fine-tuning to account for time-outs, but I think that we can make it right.