Long Time Lurker, First Time Poster

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Hey Earl. Welcome to the forum!!

I agree that it's technically not an inadvertent whistle. But why does putting time back on the clock mean that we must go back to the original throw-in spot? I don't get the connection between those two things.

Let me try to simplify this whole thing. This is an official's timeout. The official blew the whistle to make a correction. If a team calls a timeout before the throw-in is completed, where is the next throw-in? The ball has not yet achieved any status other than its original position.
On a throw-in, if the ball bounces in the frontcourt, has it attained front court status? No. A player in the backcourt may be the 1st to touch it after it touches the floor in the frontcourt.
The same applies to this situation.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Let me try to simplify this whole thing. This is an official's timeout.

Officials don't get time outs.

"Official's timeout" is announcer-speak.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by socalreff

On a throw-in, if the ball bounces in the frontcourt, has it attained front court status? No. A player in the backcourt may be the 1st to touch it after it touches the floor in the frontcourt.

Yes, it has attained front court status. Take another look at 4-4-2. The rules for backcourt violation and backcourt status are related, but there are key differences.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Yes, it has attained front court status. Take another look at 4-4-2. The rules for backcourt violation and backcourt status are related, but there are key differences.

Mark, I think he has it correct. If the ball and only the ball touches the front court, it does not attain front court status yet.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Mark, I think he has it correct. If the ball and only the ball touches the front court, it does not attain front court status yet.

Just because there's no team control doesn't mean it hasn't attained FC status.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Mark, I think he has it correct. If the ball and only the ball touches the front court, it does not attain front court status yet.

NFHS 4-4-2:
A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.

Q.E.D.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Mark, I think he has it correct. If the ball and only the ball touches the front court, it does not attain front court status yet.

See also 9-9-2.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I keep seeing your reference to 4-3-3. Do you not know that this rule is to set the direction of the INITIAL ARROW...

Sorry, it's a typo. I meant 4-4-3, which deals with BALL LOCATION. I've gone back and edited my previous posts to the correct number.

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

The official blew the whistle before the throw-in ENDED, the ball is dead, whether the whistle was inadvertent or to correct the clock, the throw-in after a made basket did not end, nor was there a violation on the throw-in team, so you give the ball back to the Team A, back at the endline (and he can run the endline), and let's play.

Joe, what you are missing is that there is not a rule in the book which says to do what you seem to think is THE way to handle the situation.
Even though the stoppage occurred during a throw-in, the POI rule does not apply because the reason for the stoppage is NOT one of those listed in 4-36-1. We agree that this is not an accidental whistle, right?

It is unfortunate, but I believe that the rule which governs this play is 6-4-3e. That describes the conditions under which the ball became dead. That rule says to use the AP arrow at the location of the ball.

See the problem?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by NewNCref

I'm also not advocating going to the AP, because it's not an inadvertent whistle.

I'm also maintaining that this is not an accidental whistle (the correct NFHS terminology), but that going to the AP is unfortunately correct because 6-4-3e describes the conditions under which the ball became dead.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

I heard back from my interpreter and will post his response here. Some will agree and some will disagree. And, no, firing the clock operator on the spot was not part of the response.

interesting play and connects with the point I was attempting to make at the mid-season meetings about being aware of the clock in crucial situations...there are many different situations that occur and not a lot of guidance in the rule book, which then allows Rule 2-3 (Referee's Authority) to take over...that rule along with experience, rule knowledge and common sense will hopefully provide for a ruling that is FAIR...I would say in the situation presented, that the ball should be inbounded at the spot closest to where the ball was when the whistle was blown i.e. near the division line, and that the clock should be reset to the original time i.e. 32.3(I think it was)...

So you ask your rules interpreter for help and rather than do some bookwork and attempt cite an applicable rule for you, he tells you to fall back on 2-3 and advance the ball for the throwing team.

I'm sure that JR will have some choice words for him about that decision.

[OHBBREF]

With Due respect to rules interpreters and those who have posted thus far IMHO
This is NOT an INADVERTANT WHISTLE it IS a TIMERS MISTAKE that is why you are blowing the whistle so you can find what to do, But because there is a rule involved you can not no mater how badly covered use elasticity to fill in the gaps or your feelings or personal opinions.
I think this is how you have to go about resetting play.
1)
now if the ball was not touched
the clock is restet to 32.2
and the ball is inbounded where it was when the ball was touched and the whistle blew.

the ball is where it was when the whistle blew.
no time ran off the clock since it was not touched

2)
if the ball was touched by the inbounding team
The clock is reset at something less than 32.2 (Ref knowledge)
and the ball is inbounded where it was when the whistle blew.

the ball is where it was when the whistle blew.
and time came off the clock because it was touched

3)
if the ball was intercepted by the defending team then the whisle blows
The clock is reset at something less than 32.2
and the ball is inbounded where it was when the whistle blew.

the ball is where it was when the whistle blew.
and time came off the clock because it was touched.

and in these resets there are no advantages gained because things are at best POI when the whistle blew.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

With Due respect to rules interpreters and those who have posted thus far IMHO
This is NOT an INADVERTANT WHISTLE it IS a TIMERS MISTAKE that is why you are blowing the whistle ...


...things are at best POI when the whistle blew.

Please show me where in the rules it says to go to the POI when the whistle is sounded for a timer's mistake. Sorry, but that is not one of the reasons listed in 4-36-1. Care to try again?

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So you ask your rules interpreter for help and rather than do some bookwork and attempt cite an applicable rule for you, he tells you to fall back on 2-3 and advance the ball for the throwing team.

I'm sure that JR will have some choice words for him about that decision.

What did I post, Nevada? I said that I would copy and paste the original post and send it to my interpreter who is on the Fed rules committee. That is exactly what I did. Several on here who are far more knowledgeble than me had disagreements on what the solution was and many cited rules and cases or stated there was not enough clarity. But, no. Asking someone with more knowledge than me is a dumb thing to do according to Nevada. Much better to figure out something on my own and assume it is correct. I guess I should have just asked you since you are smarter than everyone else combined on this board.

[Camron Rust]

Relavant case that no one has mentioned....(I don't have my books with me so someone else can look up the reference).

Violation by B. Ref mistakenly gives ball to B for the throwin. The untouched ball is rolling down the court when the ref realizes the error and blows the whistle. The case play says that until the throwin is touched, the mistake can be corrected....that A will get the ball.

WHY? There is rules justification for it and the same rule applies here.

Because the ball became dead and a timeout, goal or infraction of the rules was involved (it was what dictated that there would be a throwin to begin with). And until that throwin ends or there is a violation or foul, team A has a throwin due them. A will continue to be due that throwin...and at the original spot since it is still part of the penalty for the infraction that had occured or part of the result of a team scoring a goal.

So, when the ball becomes dead as it is rolling down the floor on the throwin, the throwing team will get the ball at the original spot.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

See also 9-9-2.

How can there be BC, when there's no team control? Which end is the backcourt when neither team has control?