Long Time Lurker, First Time Poster

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Please show me where in the rules it says to go to the POI when the whistle is sounded for a timer's mistake. Sorry, but that is not one of the reasons listed in 4-36-1. Care to try again?

I didn't say the rule said return to POI - It doesn't but I think you are wrong what you are doing is is ignoring why you have blown the whistle -
you blew the whistle to correct a timers mistake under
under scoring and timing regulations - section 10 - article 2 (I believe do not have NFHS book with me)you stop the clock and then either reset or take time off the clock and give the ball back where it was.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

How can there be BC, when there's no team control? Which end is the backcourt when neither team has control?

Juulie - I was using 9-9-2 to illustrate the fact that the ball doesn't need to be touched in FC/BC to attain such a status. That said, a TEAM has its own FC/BC established whether there is control or not (4-13).

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'm also maintaining that this is not an accidental whistle (the correct NFHS terminology), but that going to the AP is unfortunately correct because 6-4-3e describes the conditions under which the ball became dead.

After a made basket, you are going to give the ball back to Team B because the timer mistakenly stopped or started the clock? If the timer starts the clock, while Team A is about to inbound the ball (and still has the ball), after a made basket, and the referee blows the whistle to correct, what do you do now? There's still no team control during the throw-in (FED). Give it back Team B who just scored?? I DON'T THINK SO!!

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

After a made basket, you are going to give the ball back to Team B because the timer mistakenly stopped or started the clock? If the timer starts the clock, while Team A is about to inbound the ball (and still has the ball), after a made basket, and the referee blows the whistle to correct, what do you do now? There's still no team control during the throw-in (FED). Give it back Team B who just scored?? I DON'T THINK SO!!

And this post is under the assumption that Team B has the possession arrow.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

After a made basket, you are going to give the ball back to Team B because the timer mistakenly stopped or started the clock? If the timer starts the clock, while Team A is about to inbound the ball (and still has the ball), after a made basket, and the referee blows the whistle to correct, what do you do now? There's still no team control during the throw-in (FED). Give it back Team B who just scored?? I DON'T THINK SO!!

Yes, he certainly is saying that. And he is also insisting that the rules say that you must do so.

Ludicrous, ain't it?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, he certainly is saying that. And he is also insisting that the rules say that you must do so.

Ludicrous, ain't it?

The Emperor has spoken.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

1) now if the ball was not touched the clock is restet to 32.2 and the ball is inbounded where it was when the ball was touched and the whistle blew.

Was the ball touched in your example? Are you referencing the endline throw-in as where the ball was touched?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

After a made basket, you are going to give the ball back to Team B because the timer mistakenly stopped or started the clock? If the timer starts the clock, while Team A is about to inbound the ball (and still has the ball), after a made basket, and the referee blows the whistle to correct, what do you do now? There's still no team control during the throw-in (FED). Give it back Team B who just scored?? I DON'T THINK SO!!

I don't think that is a good idea either, but that is what the current rules say to do. To say it again, I don't like it.
In fact, I think that your example is an excellent one, and I will likely use it to attempt to get the rules committee to alter 4-36-1. A stoppage to correct a timing error needs to be included in that list. That would fix things.

Unfortunately, the way things are now, neither you nor any other official can point to a rule other than 6-4-3e that covers the stoppage in this situation.

You have conveniently said that you don't think that using the AP arrow and possibly giving the ball back to Team B is right, but you have not cited a rule that says to do anything else. Please be specific, if you think that there is one.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I didn't say the rule said return to POI -

Really? You wrote:

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

...and in these resets there are no advantages gained because things are at best POI when the whistle blew.

So what are you saying is the proper way to restart the game?

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

It doesn't but I think you are wrong what you are doing is is ignoring why you have blown the whistle -
you blew the whistle to correct a timers mistake under
under scoring and timing regulations - section 10 - article 2 (I believe do not have NFHS book with me)you stop the clock and then either reset or take time off the clock and give the ball back where it was.

I have never said that this was an accidental whistle. In fact, I have gone out of my way to say that it was not. You need to go back and reread my posts.
Now what I put in red certainly seems like you are applying the POI rule. What rule permits you to "give the ball back where it was"? You say to do this, but you never say why or what rules support you would have for doing so.

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I think this is how you have to go about resetting play.
1)
now if the ball was not touched
the clock is restet to 32.2
and the ball is inbounded where it was when the ball was touched and the whistle blew.

the ball is where it was when the whistle blew.
no time ran off the clock since it was not touched

Here you say to reset the clock because no one touched the ball, and that the ball is where it was when the whistle blew, but you never say what to do. Do you want to give someone a throw-in? Do you want to use the AP arrow? And where to do want to inbound the ball from--near the division line or back on the end line? You never specify. That is very confusing.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

What did I post, Nevada? I said that I would copy and paste the original post and send it to my interpreter who is on the Fed rules committee. That is exactly what I did. Several on here who are far more knowledgeble than me had disagreements on what the solution was and many cited rules and cases or stated there was not enough clarity. But, no. Asking someone with more knowledge than me is a dumb thing to do according to Nevada. Much better to figure out something on my own and assume it is correct. I guess I should have just asked you since you are smarter than everyone else combined on this board.

My state rules guy is also on the NFHS rules committee just like yours. No big deal.
I never said that it was a poor idea for you to consult someone that you believe is more knowledgable for help. I did have an issue with this person that you went to not bothering to give you anything in the current rules that would cover the situation about which you inquired. Instead your rules person just said to use 2-3 and make up what to do. I don't believe that is helpful at all. You could have done that without consulting him. So my criticism was not of you, but of your state rules interpreter. If my interpreter were to write something to me that was as weak and unhelpful as yours did, I would criticize him too.

[RookieDude]

Late:

"Working" the night shift, again, and had some time to muddle through all this.

I actually changed my mind, as to how I would administer this sitch, as I was reading the different posts. No, Nevada, I am not giving the ball back to Team B.

Initially, I thought I would do as JR and others have suggested...simply put the correct time on the clock and start back at the endline.

But, as some posters have stated...and adding some of my own thoughts...

1) The ball was live as it was rolling
2) Team B chose to NOT play defense or press
3) The ball made it to a different place than where it started. (some player propelled it...the ball didn't roll on it's own)
4) If the timer had started the clock CORRECTLY, wouldn't the ball have been at the NEW SPOT (close to the division line) with the SAME time that should have been on the clock if it had not started incorrectly? (Sort of a TIME and DISTANCE thing...oh wait! a different thread)
5) No specific rule...use judgement...at least one State rule interpreter with FED ties says so.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

5) No specific rule...use judgement...at least one State rule interpreter with FED ties says so.

That's about all that you can do, Dude, when a play like this isn't definitively covered.

[OHBBREF]

Nevada
Okay having reread your rule cites, I see were you come up with the AP to reset play if you blew the whistle without possession / team control it does make some sense as to the determination that you came to.
I still do not agree with it - I think it a terrible outcome for the offense committed by the timer - but I find nothing that proves you wrong in the NFHS rules based blowing the ball dead without possession / team control being established.

That is the problem.

The whistle should not have been blown until possession/team control had been established,(this would not matter in NCAA as there is team control on the throw in), once team control is established, the whistle is blown, the timers mistake is rectified by resetting the clock or taking time off and the ball is put inbounds nearest the spot where the whistle blew. Because there is Team control the AP is out of the question.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Late:

"Working" the night shift, again, and had some time to muddle through all this.

I actually changed my mind, as to how I would administer this sitch, as I was reading the different posts. No, Nevada, I am not giving the ball back to Team B.

Initially, I thought I would do as JR and others have suggested...simply put the correct time on the clock and start back at the endline.

But, as some posters have stated...and adding some of my own thoughts...

1) The ball was live as it was rolling
2) Team B chose to NOT play defense or press
3) The ball made it to a different place than where it started. (some player propelled it...the ball didn't roll on it's own)
4) If the timer had started the clock CORRECTLY, wouldn't the ball have been at the NEW SPOT (close to the division line) with the SAME time that should have been on the clock if it had not started incorrectly? (Sort of a TIME and DISTANCE thing...oh wait! a different thread)
5) No specific rule...use judgement...at least one State rule interpreter with FED ties says so.

Here is why I disagree with that method....

Team A will get the ball near mid-court in a players hands with the clock stopped with an opportunity to throw the ball in a new direction with increased speed. That is an opportunity they don't have with the ball rolling down the court. Again, the difference is that, while the ball may be at the division line in both cases, team A gets the ball in a much better situation with a new throwin at mid-court with the clock stopped and no time removed.

Anytime the whistle is blown before the throwin is completed (and there is no violation or foul), the new throwin spot will be the old throwin spot.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Here is why I disagree with that method....

Team A will get the ball near mid-court in a players hands with the clock stopped with an opportunity to throw the ball in a new direction with increased speed. That is an opportunity they don't have with the ball rolling down the court. Again, the difference is that, while the ball may be at the division line in both cases, team A gets the ball in a much better situation with a new throwin at mid-court with the clock stopped and no time removed.

Anytime the whistle is blown before the throwin is completed (and there is no violation or foul), the new throwin spot will be the old throwin spot.

I posted exactly the same thing ages ago and the thread keeps on going. I just know that's what I would do and would be backed by my assignors because I've seen the situation and had the situation and that's always been the right way according to those I work for and want to work for.