Watta ya got video?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Old School:

4) I repeat: Time and distance does NOT apply when obtaining/establishing a legal guarding position against an offensive player who is not airborne when he gains control of the ball.

5) The Act of Shooting and Continuous Motion have nothing to do with obtaining/establishing a legal guarding postition.

Your lack of rules knowledge translates directly proportinal to your ability to correctly officiate the game.

MTD, Sr.

You know I was actually going to let this go and take my lumps and move on because I know I can not change the way most of you are viewing this play. However, like most of the rest of you. You have been drinking a little too much of that kool-aid. You have a one-track mind, you only see one side of the story, the defense. However, I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me because at least you stuck to your point, and not digress to insults which tells me a lot of about you, and there's hope for you. Also, I think you did better without the book then with it. Your points are very clear, especially the time and distance. However, I think you should have went for the hot tub.

Here's the reason why. Rule 4-23-2a. To obtain LGP the guard must have both feet touching the playing court. When you view the tape frame by frame, you can't tell (and this is after the fact) if the guard got his second (left) foot to the floor, before the shooter picked his foot up and became airborne. It's too close to call. And if I can't tell from the video afterwards, then sure as hell, you can't determine this either in real time. So here in lies my point. The official viewed the play one-way and reason that all the defender has to do is get there, like you so well put it, there is no time and distance. Instead of judging the play, this official made a rulebook call. He's set, offense! He disregarded all the other factors around him, like the player with the ball.

I'm going to give you two examples: Not an absolute but food for thought.
#1.) In baseball, we have a term that all baseball players know. It's call "tie goes to the runner!" If the base-runner gets to the bag at the precise time that the first baseman catches the ball, it's a tie, SAFE!

Now in our situation, we have Rule 4-27-2 ...contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements should not be considered illegal even though the contact is severe. My point is, you can not dismiss the offensive player here. Your call in real time should be closer to this then a charge because this is closer to what actually happened, imho. And, I'm not splitting the atom today. It's too close to call, I got a tie. Tie goes to the runner. Unfortunately, this is not baseball.

#2.) If, in the NCAA tournament or any conference playoff's leading to the big dance. If an official, calls a charge in this situation. Guaranteed, he ain't going any further in the playoff's. Scratch his name off the list. That's why you would never see that call made in college, especially men. In college, that's either a no-call or a block. You make that game deciding call in college, you be watching the rest of the playoff's from the sideline.

This doesn't have anything to do with me, or my ability to call a game. If you believe that my voice is so bad for basketball that it should be silence, than there is something wrong with you. My call, block, count the bucket, we're going home and I'm going to the next round of the playoff's. You will be going back home to study your rulebook more and learn when to apply the rule and when to apply judgment. It's in there somewhere, just keep reading, you'll find it. Don't worry about me, because I will on the court, block! Good call ref!

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Old School

Now in our situation, we have Rule 4-27-2 ...contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements should not be considered illegal even though the contact is severe. My point is, you can not dismiss the offensive player here. Your call in real time should be closer to this then a charge because this is closer to what actually happened, imho. And, I'm not splitting the atom today. It's too close to call, I got a tie. Tie goes to the runner. Unfortunately, this is not baseball.

No, it's not baseball. Unfortunately (for you) the rules of basketball are different: going in that way against the torso of a defender who has obtained LGP is not a normal offensive movement, it is a foul. Why? Simple, the rules state so. Our job as officials is to decide, isn't it? Baseball umpires need a rule in order to decide for those situations and indeed the rules give priority to the runner (pardon me if I don't use correct baseball terminology, I'm European ).

In our game that's a foul and it's the official's job to decide if it is on the offense or on the defense. Sorry for you, but when I saw the video for the first time I said "charge". Probably you were looking only at the offensive player, which is a big mistake.

Maybe it depends from the fact that we do mostly two-man officiating, so I tried to do what the lead would have done to judge that contact: looking at the defender. From a trail's point of view, it would have been difficult, if not impossible, to decide, I agree. That's why we have 2 or 3 officials on the court.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Old School

You know I was actually going to let this go and take my lumps and move on because I know I can not change the way most of you are viewing this play. However, like most of the rest of you. You have been drinking a little too much of that kool-aid. You have a one-track mind, you only see one side of the story, the defense. However, I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me because at least you stuck to your point, and not digress to insults which tells me a lot of about you, and there's hope for you. Also, I think you did better without the book then with it. Your points are very clear, especially the time and distance. However, I think you should have went for the hot tub.

Here's the reason why. Rule 4-23-2a. To obtain LGP the guard must have both feet touching the playing court. When you view the tape frame by frame, you can't tell (and this is after the fact) if the guard got his second (left) foot to the floor, before the shooter picked his foot up and became airborne. It's too close to call. And if I can't tell from the video afterwards, then sure as hell, you can't determine this either in real time. So here in lies my point. The official viewed the play one-way and reason that all the defender has to do is get there, like you so well put it, there is no time and distance. Instead of judging the play, this official made a rulebook call. He's set, offense! He disregarded all the other factors around him, like the player with the ball.

I'm going to give you two examples: Not an absolute but food for thought.
#1.) In baseball, we have a term that all baseball players know. It's call "tie goes to the runner!" If the base-runner gets to the bag at the precise time that the first baseman catches the ball, it's a tie, SAFE!

Now in our situation, we have Rule 4-27-2 ...contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements should not be considered illegal even though the contact is severe. My point is, you can not dismiss the offensive player here. Your call in real time should be closer to this then a charge because this is closer to what actually happened, imho. And, I'm not splitting the atom today. It's too close to call, I got a tie. Tie goes to the runner. Unfortunately, this is not baseball.

#2.) If, in the NCAA tournament or any conference playoff's leading to the big dance. If an official, calls a charge in this situation. Guaranteed, he ain't going any further in the playoff's. Scratch his name off the list. That's why you would never see that call made in college, especially men. In college, that's either a no-call or a block. You make that game deciding call in college, you be watching the rest of the playoff's from the sideline.

This doesn't have anything to do with me, or my ability to call a game. If you believe that my voice is so bad for basketball that it should be silence, than there is something wrong with you. My call, block, count the bucket, we're going home and I'm going to the next round of the playoff's. You will be going back home to study your rulebook more and learn when to apply the rule and when to apply judgment. It's in there somewhere, just keep reading, you'll find it. Don't worry about me, because I will on the court, block! Good call ref!

Old School:

I did not share my thoughts with you, I told you the reality of the situation, but you still do not want to learn from me or any of the other knowledgeble officials. Many learned members of the Forum have done my work for me (I have pretty lazy about quoting the specific rules sections) by quoting the applicable rules, yet you continue to ignore these rules references and instead you quote rules that have nothing to do with the situation. You have shown that you do not want to learn nor do you want to apply the rules correctly. If you really are a basketball official, I am asking you once again to stop officaiting because you do not understand the rules nor do you want to apply them correctly.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

From Old School: "In baseball, we have a term that all baseball players know. It's call "tie goes to the runner!" If the base-runner gets to the bag at the precise time that the first baseman catches the ball, it's a tie, SAFE!"

Old School: Maybe the players know it. I thought that I had a pretty good idea about it also. Hopefully the umpires know something else. I was told by a colleague of mine, who umpires high school and college baseball, that there is no such rule, "tie goes to the runner", in baseball. He directed me to to "look it up" online, and, sure enough, he was right:

THE TIE RULE MYTH

There is no such thing in the world of umpiring. The runner is either out or safe. The umpire must judge out or safe. It is impossible to judge a tie. Lets look at the rules (OBR) 6.05 deals with a batter becoming a runner and 7.08 deals with a runner going to 2nd, 3rd, or Home.

6.05 A batter is out when (j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base.
Here, as it relates to time, the rule states the runner must be tagged before he touches first base. So if they were to happen at the same time, the runner would be safe because the runner was not tagged “before”.

7.08 Any runner is out when (e) He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.
Here it states that the runner must reach the base before the ball, thus a perception of time being a tie, the runner would be out.

So in conculsion, tie goes to runner at first and tie goes to fielders at the other bases.

He was right. I was wrong. That's why he's a baseball umpire, and I'm only an umpire in half of the basketball games that I officiate.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

THE TIE RULE MYTH

There is no such thing in the world of umpiring. The runner is either out or safe. The umpire must judge out or safe. It is impossible to judge a tie.

So OldSchool doesn't know baseball rules either. I renew my invitation to become an official in games where there is no need to judge in a split second: something where people don't run across a court or field. Bridge, for example. Or something like WWF, where the official doesn't matter.

[BillyMac]

eg-italy: WWF? Be careful. I don't think that you would want to officiate a fight between a crocodile and a hippopotomus. WWF is the "official" symbol of the World Wildlife Federation. Because of this, a few years ago, the WWF (World Wrestling Federation) became the WWE (World Wrestling Entertainment). I know this because my son is an expert on professional wrestling. While in college, at St. Anselm, he hosted a radio, call-in, talk show on professional wrestling. Plus, I live in Connecticut, and Stamford, CT is the home of the WWE.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

eg-italy: WWF? Be careful. I don't think that you would want to officiate a fight between a crocodile and a hippopotomus. WWF is the "official" symbol of the World Wildlife Federation. Because of this, a few years ago, the WWF (World Wrestling Federation) became the WWE (World Wrestling Entertainment). I know this because my son is an expert on professional wrestling. While in college, at St. Anselm, he hosted a radio, call-in, talk show on professional wrestling. Plus, I live in Connecticut, and Stamford, CT is the home of the WWE.

This shows that I don't know very much of that kind of "sport". WWE, then; I can't see OldSchool officiating wild goats when they go head crashing: too fast and there's no offense to look at, since they are both on the offense; but there's no LGP either, so, maybe...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

#2.) If, in the NCAA tournament or any conference playoff's leading to the big dance. If an official, calls a charge in this situation. Guaranteed, he ain't going any further in the playoff's. Scratch his name off the list. That's why you would never see that call made in college, especially men. In college, that's either a no-call or a block. You make that game deciding call in college, you be watching the rest of the playoff's from the sideline.

So, you think that getting this call right will send an official home, and getting it wrong will help him advance? That's right, folks, disregard the rules and apply them how Old School thinks is appropriate, and you'll do all the games you want in his rec league.

[rulesmaven]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So in conculsion, tie goes to runner at first and tie goes to fielders at the other bases.

I actually like Steve Palermo's reputed answer from the late 1980s much better, which, in a few words seems to capture an umpiring philosophy rather diametrically opposed to that being espoused by a particular old school poster here:

Anyway, when asked the question whether a tie really does go to the runner, his answer supposedly was: "Tie? Never seen one."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Old School

#2.) If, in the NCAA tournament or any conference playoff's leading to the big dance. If an official, calls a charge in this situation. Guaranteed, he ain't going any further in the playoff's. Scratch his name off the list. That's why you would never see that call made in college, especially men. In college, that's either a no-call or a block. You make that game deciding call in college, you be watching the rest of the playoff's from the sideline.

This doesn't have anything to do with me, or my ability to call a game. If you believe that my voice is so bad for basketball that it should be silence, than there is something wrong with you. My call, block, count the bucket, we're going home and I'm going to the next round of the playoff's. You will be going back home to study your rulebook more and learn when to apply the rule and when to apply judgment. It's in there somewhere, just keep reading, you'll find it. Don't worry about me, because I will on the court, block! Good call ref!

Old School:

Do you have any personal friends that officiate Div. I basketbakll? I do not officiate Div. I women's anymore, but have officiated 18 women's coll. Div. I regional playoff games and 20 women's jr. coll. regional playoff games. I still have a number of close friends that still officiate officiate men's or women's coll. Div. I, including two who have worked the women's title game (one has officiated it multiple times); as well as friends with a number of Div. I evaluators. You do NOT have a clue. So please, please (help me, my apologies to the Beatles) stop officiating basketball until you learn the rules.

MTD, Sr.

[rulesmaven]

A conversation I would love to hear:

"Kids, I know you worked hard all year. I know some of you may never play organized competitive basketball again, or at least not get this close to a goal. I know some of you have pushed yourselves harder than you ever thought you could and spent countless hours making yourself as good as you can.

"And I know how disappointed you are that your season is over. But please take solace in this: It was not caprice or arbitrariness that ended your season. Always know, in your heart of hearts, this: I did not slavishly apply those silly rules. I used judgment. Godspeed."

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Old School:

I did not share my thoughts with you, I told you the reality of the situation, but you still do not want to learn from me or any of the other knowledgeble officials. Many learned members of the Forum have done my work for me (I have pretty lazy about quoting the specific rules sections) by quoting the applicable rules, yet you continue to ignore these rules references and instead you quote rules that have nothing to do with the situation. You have shown that you do not want to learn nor do you want to apply the rules correctly. If you really are a basketball official, I am asking you once again to stop officaiting because you do not understand the rules nor do you want to apply them correctly.

MTD, Sr.

Okay, relax, take a deep breath, and repeat after me.
It's not all about me,
Again, it's not all about me,
One more time, it's not all about me,
It's about the game,
It's about the players,
But it's not all about me.

Get over yourself!

[Adam]

Somebody's projecting again.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Okay, relax, take a deep breath, and repeat after me.
It's not all about me,
Again, it's not all about me,
One more time, it's not all about me,
It's about the game,
It's about the players,
But it's not all about me.

Get over yourself!

Relax Old School, take a deep breath, and repeat after me..

"I am a troll."

Again....

"I am a troll."

One more time....

"I am a troll."

[Old School]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

From Old School: "In baseball, we have a term that all baseball players know. It's call "tie goes to the runner!" If the base-runner gets to the bag at the precise time that the first baseman catches the ball, it's a tie, SAFE!"

Old School: Maybe the players know it. I thought that I had a pretty good idea about it also. Hopefully the umpires know something else. I was told by a colleague of mine, who umpires high school and college baseball, that there is no such rule, "tie goes to the runner", in baseball. He directed me to to "look it up" online, and, sure enough, he was right:

THE TIE RULE MYTH

There is no such thing in the world of umpiring. The runner is either out or safe. The umpire must judge out or safe. It is impossible to judge a tie. Lets look at the rules (OBR) 6.05 deals with a batter becoming a runner and 7.08 deals with a runner going to 2nd, 3rd, or Home.

6.05 A batter is out when (j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base.
Here, as it relates to time, the rule states the runner must be tagged before he touches first base. So if they were to happen at the same time, the runner would be safe because the runner was not tagged “before”.

7.08 Any runner is out when (e) He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.
Here it states that the runner must reach the base before the ball, thus a perception of time being a tie, the runner would be out.

So in conculsion, tie goes to runner at first and tie goes to fielders at the other bases.

He was right. I was wrong. That's why he's a baseball umpire, and I'm only an umpire in half of the basketball games that I officiate.

If you go back and read what I said. I said, not an absolute you moron. I also said it was something the players know and used it as an example. Again, not an absolute.

Now, repeat after me.
It's not all about me,
Again, it's not all about me.