Fifth foul procedure

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by mplagrow

Am I being too condescending?

I'm not being condescending (talking down to you). I'm simply stating the fact that we're discussing a freshman game. If the issue was missing the first round of your varsity post-season tournament, then I'm with you. But this is a simple rule screw-up by a freshman ref who obviously doesn't know any better. Who cares? The more important issue is the behavior that generated the (admittedly) deserved T. Instead of worrying that he didn't get a horn at 20 seconds, he should be concerned about addressing the behavior. Yes, the ref screwed up. But that's not the primary issue, as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

It is my job to try and win whatever I have to do (within the rules).

But you didn't do that. You were a wise-@@@ and got whacked. Eliminate that, and there's no second T.

I am trying to advance, just like I did when I was officiating.

I absolutely understand that. I'd be surprised if you weren't.

If you as a coach expect your players to give you everything they have, you have to do the same.

Agreed, but irrelevant to the situation of being tossed.

As for why do I care, because I care about my players

Your players would've been fine for one game. You probably care more about the game than they do. Again, not being condescending, but this is a freshman game. They would learn just as much from seeing how you serve a one-game suspension that you didn't deserve as they would from hearing you coach for 32 minutes.

Having said all that, I think it's appropriate that you were not punished for a mis-application of the rule. If the powers-that-be said that their hands were tied and you had to serve it, I would have no problem with that, either. But again, I think the larger issue is not the second T, but the first one.

[chartrusepengui]

Ok, maybe I missed someone else saying this but .......... you are a referee turned coach right?

So, you should already know the procedures, consequences etc.

Ok, so you didn't get a horn at 20 seconds. That does not mean you don't have to have a replacement in by 30 seconds and you already knew that. You obviously also weren't coaching too much you were "freezing" the shooter and had your replacement standing there waiting to send in. Sounds like you kind of "screwed the pooch" on this one playing games.

Do you think that "freezing" the shooter for 30 seconds is any more effective than "freezing" them for 20 seconds especially at a freshman level?

Come on - GET OVER IT! Ya blew it earlier in the game when you already earned one T. As on ex-official you should know where the lines are. Even if the TIMER didn't follow procedure - the official did when he gave you the second T for not having the sub in. Their only screw up as I see it - is you were not ejected and for that - at least in my state - you can be thankful!

[Eastshire]

Here's why I don't get. The OP has a player standing right next to him. Obviously this is the kid going in. When the horn sounds, why doesn't the referee just bring the kid in? That's what I'm going to do. "Ok 15 let's get in here."

I think it's clear that he has designated the sub so get the sub in. The T should be reserved for the coach who just stands there and stares at you for 30 seconds.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Here's why I don't get. The OP has a player standing right next to him. Obviously this is the kid going in. When the horn sounds, why doesn't the referee just bring the kid in? That's what I'm going to do. "Ok 15 let's get in here."

I think it's clear that he has designated the sub so get the sub in. The T should be reserved for the coach who just stands there and stares at you for 30 seconds.

Seriously, depends on where they are standing. The kid standing by the coach in the team bench area when the horn sounds WHACK!!. The kid and coach standing at X in front of table horns sounds "let's go 15 coach (former official) I did not get my 20 sec horn don't worry about WHACK!! no difference. Like it was stated before clean up the behavior.

[OklahomaRef]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Seriously, depends on where they are standing. The kid standing by the coach in the team bench area when the horn sounds WHACK!!. The kid and coach standing at X in front of table horns sounds "let's go 15 coach (former official) I did not get my 20 sec horn don't worry about WHACK!! no difference. Like it was stated before clean up the behavior.

I don't fell like I really need to clean up my behavior. I am very respectful to the kids and the officials. When I got the first technical I was trying to kill some momentum for them, and build some for us. I wasn't irate when I got it, I just basically asked for it. I had plenty of coaches do the same when I was officiating. I never took it as they were out of control or anything like that. The thing is is that after I got the T the opposing team missed both free throws, we forced a turnover and went to the line. It was a huge momentum swing. I remember coaches that made fools of themselves and I'm not going to be like that. However, if I think getting a technical in a certain situation will help us win, I am going to do so.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Here's why I don't get. The OP has a player standing right next to him. Obviously this is the kid going in. When the horn sounds, why doesn't the referee just bring the kid in? That's what I'm going to do. "Ok 15 let's get in here."

I think it's clear that he has designated the sub so get the sub in. The T should be reserved for the coach who just stands there and stares at you for 30 seconds.

Read case book play 10.5.3SitB(c) and you'll get it.

The "T" is reserved for a head coach that doesn't have a sub at the table when the 30-second horn goes.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

However, if I think getting a technical in a certain situation will help us win, I am going to do so.

Sigh......

Unfortunately, that statement tells me all that I need to know right there. Sad, but certainly not uncommon.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sigh......

Unfortunately, that statement tells me all that I need to know right there. Sad, but certainly not uncommon.

I don't understand why it's "sad." This is a common tactic, from what I've observed. A lot of times a technical foul will get your players all riled up and ready to go back in there and scrap harder. I imagine it's tough as an official to try and judge whether that's the coach's intent or not and how that factors into your decision to call the T.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I don't understand why it's "sad." This is a common tactic, from what I've observed.

It's sad because:

1) The coach is placing winning above sportsmanship. He or she is intentionally acting in an unsportsmanlike manner in order to gain a perceived competitive advantage. At the high school level, and particularly at the freshman level, that's sad.

2) The coach is not coaching. For whatever reason, the coach decides that he is unable to motivate/teach/instruct his team adequately. He has stopped being a coach and decides to become "the show", in the hopes that that will motivate his team.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

It's sad because:

1) The coach is placing winning above sportsmanship. He or she is intentionally acting in an unsportsmanlike manner in order to gain a perceived competitive advantage. At the high school level, and particularly at the freshman level, that's sad.

2) The coach is not coaching. For whatever reason, the coach decides that he is unable to motivate/teach/instruct his team adequately. He has stopped being a coach and decides to become "the show", in the hopes that that will motivate his team.

Well put. I hadn't thought of it that way.

I have to say, I'm learning a lot, and it's actually a bit discouraging. Lots of little nuances like this that don't come naturally yet. Thanks for your post, though.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

I don't fell like I really need to clean up my behavior. I am very respectful to the kids and the officials. When I got the first technical I was trying to kill some momentum for them, and build some for us. I wasn't irate when I got it, I just basically asked for it. I had plenty of coaches do the same when I was officiating. I never took it as they were out of control or anything like that. The thing is is that after I got the T the opposing team missed both free throws, we forced a turnover and went to the line. It was a huge momentum swing. I remember coaches that made fools of themselves and I'm not going to be like that. However, if I think getting a technical in a certain situation will help us win, I am going to do so.

Oklahoma Ref, go to know.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

It's sad because:

1) The coach is placing winning above sportsmanship. He or she is intentionally acting in an unsportsmanlike manner in order to gain a perceived competitive advantage. At the high school level, and particularly at the freshman level, that's sad.

2) The coach is not coaching. For whatever reason, the coach decides that he is unable to motivate/teach/instruct his team adequately. He has stopped being a coach and decides to become "the show", in the hopes that that will motivate his team.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sigh......

Unfortunately, that statement tells me all that I need to know right there. Sad, but certainly not uncommon.

Don't agree here. We always say a Technical is just another foul call. We punish the behavior and move on. No big deal. Nothing to make me think lesser of the coach. I think it's not an uncommon practice among coaches. We're not supposed to take it personally.

We don't like coaches judging us but we feel it's alright to judge them.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Don't agree here. We always say a Technical is just another foul call. We punish the behavior and move on. No big deal. Nothing to make me think lesser of the coach. I think it's not an uncommon practice among coaches. We're not supposed to take it personally.

We don't like coaches judging us but we feel it's alright to judge them.

Yes, technical fouls are just another call. That doesn't mean that we approve of unsporting acts. Do I think lesser of a coach that will deliberately commit an unsporting act to try and get an advantage? Yup, I sureashell do. That doesn't affect the way that I call a game though. And I don't carry it over to the next game either. It certainly does mean though that I am not going to ignore those unsporting acts. Ever.

Every time that we issue an unsporting technical foul to a coach, we are judging that coach's behavior. That's part of our job. It is not part of a coach's job to judge the referees.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

Thank you. Is it a direct technical or indirect technical? I got a direct earlier in the game. I need to know if I need to call our association. I don't want to have to sit the next two games. I was NOT ejected.

Most coaches that have some kind of brain will go ahead and sub, usually before the time expires. If he refuses, handle your business by the book to cover your azz!!!!!!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Every time that we issue an unsporting technical foul to a coach, we are judging that coach's behavior. That's part of our job. It is not part of a coach's job to judge the referees.

Yes we are judge, jury, and sometimes executioner on the court. But there are plenty of coaches who have used the practice of getting a technical for strategic or tactical reasons. My judgement of the act ends when I form the the T sign with my hands. Why he got the T is not important, whether it was an intentional ploy or an impulsive, childish reaction. Makes no nevermind to me after the fact.