Fifth foul procedure

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

You are right, but I don't think I should have to sit since there was an error. I'm not worried about the game, I worried about having to sit. If I was not ejected, will I have to sit?

That's up to your state association. Do officials have to report all Ts, or just ejections? If they have to report all technicals, then maybe. If they only have to report ejections, then probably not. Again, it's up to your state.
You might want to call them and offer the situation as a "hypothetical." You know, "a friend of mine was wondering...."

[mplagrow]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

You are right, but I don't think I should have to sit since there was an error. I'm not worried about the game, I worried about having to sit. If I was not ejected, will I have to sit?

What, in the next game you mean? That's not an NFHS rule, that may be an association rule. Appeal the case to your association and explain the circumstances. Maybe they'll let you off the hook.

[OklahomaRef]

I sent an email to the director of officials, explaining the incident. (my luck the referee probably wont even right it up) Bottom line, If i dont get a T in the first part of the game, it's not even an issue. We were down 3 with 8 seconds to go, definitely a chance to come back. It should be obvious that I wasn't trying to "show the official up", or anything like that. I hope that our association takes it into consideration.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

You are right, but I don't think I should have to sit since there was an error. I'm not worried about the game, I worried about having to sit. If I was not ejected, will I have to sit?

No offense, but why the heck do you care? It's a freakin' freshman game. You worried about losing the paycheck? If you got the required number of T's take your medicine like a big boy. It's a freakin' freshman game. Instead of worrying about the one you didn't deserve, worry about the one you did deserve. Fix that, and you don't have to worry about sitting out because some freshman level ref didn't know the rules.

[Rich]

The first horn, whether at 20 seconds or 30 seconds is MY warning horn. I'd wait another 10 seconds and then make sure a sub was ready to go.

How hard is it for the official to turn and say "give me someone?"

Can't imagine whacking a coach over this.

[Raymond]

OKref, you said yourself you weren't ejected, so I would think that you wouldn't have to sit the next two out.

If there is a local rule in place, I'm sure it says "ejection" or "2 direct Technicals" has a penalty of missing 2 games. You weren't ejected and apparently you didn't receive a 2nd direct technical.

And yes, the officials screwed this up. You as a coach should not have to use a stopwatch to get a sub in. The rulebook says warning horn at 20 seconds.

Some officials in the forum thinks it's alright for other officials to kick a rule because it's just a freshman game, I'm not part of that school of thinking. To me that's the same as a coach saying "I shouldn't be confined to the coach's box b/c it's only a freshman game.

[JugglingReferee]

Issuing a T here is nothing but BS. Table crew/on-court officials messed up. Mechanics are in place for a reason. In this case, the expectation is that we don't require the coach to be aware of when 20s and 30s are up.

JMHO.

[MadCityRef]

You had to sit after the first one.
Oh, so that's why coaches like to stand all the time, they don't sitting on their brains.

[Mountaineer]

When I used to coach, I always used my full 30 seconds too. I would get my player ready and talk to him while walking him to the table. I kinda had it down timing wise perfectly. As far as the T goes - it seems a bit hasty. It sounds like younger officials who put the ball down on an oob even though the team is walking across the floor.

AS far as you sitting - you weren't ejected. Usually that is due to an ejection . . . again, since it was a freshman game it's possible the second T won't even be reported. I know of some officials that don't report T's like that . . .

[mplagrow]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

No offense, but why the heck do you care? It's a freakin' freshman game. You worried about losing the paycheck? If you got the required number of T's take your medicine like a big boy. It's a freakin' freshman game. Instead of worrying about the one you didn't deserve, worry about the one you did deserve. Fix that, and you don't have to worry about sitting out because some freshman level ref didn't know the rules.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Some officials in the forum thinks it's alright for other officials to kick a rule because it's just a freshman game, I'm not part of that school of thinking. To me that's the same as a coach saying "I shouldn't be confined to the coach's box b/c it's only a freshman game.

For the record, that's not what I was getting at; and I don't think many officials would say it's "okay" to kick a rule at any level. Actually, I can only think of one, and even (s)he requires you at least be consistently wrong.

It's not okay to kick this, but it's to be expected in lower level ball; just like you'd expect them to kick a few back court calls and you might expect them to shoot free throws on a team control foul. It should be a learning experience for the officials involved.

What I'm saying is, the coach was using a legitimate, but risky, tactic. It's risky because he's depending on the entire officiating crew to get the details of this rule correct. In freshman ball, where you're likely to get a few rookie officials who only know about the 30 second limit, the risk is higher.

Now, it sounds like they didn't know it was supposed to be a direct on the coach; or they weren't completely sure enough about the call to eject the coach for it.

[OklahomaRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

No offense, but why the heck do you care? It's a freakin' freshman game. You worried about losing the paycheck? If you got the required number of T's take your medicine like a big boy. It's a freakin' freshman game. Instead of worrying about the one you didn't deserve, worry about the one you did deserve. Fix that, and you don't have to worry about sitting out because some freshman level ref didn't know the rules.

It is my job to try and win whatever I have to do (within the rules). I am trying to advance, just like I did when I was officiating. If you as a coach expect your players to give you everything they have, you have to do the same. When I got the first technical, I did not "lose it" or blow up, I asked a question (yes I was being a smart A$$), and I didn't like the answer (which included that is enough), so I said something else and got the "T". When I got the first T, I sat down, and did not get up again. (Except for T.O.'s) IThe other part of this story is I had these referees three straight days. All three games were very close, and hotly contested. I personally think that having them three days in a row probably led both parties to having their fill of each other. As for why do I care, because I care about my players

[OklahomaRef]

I do not know if anyone cares but I was not suspended from any games. Also, you may find this interesting. When this happened was in a tournament, we were not playing the host team, but the host coach was there to help "run the gym" whatever that means. When I got the second "T", I turned to him and said, "I get a horn at 20." This guy looked me right in the eye and said that wasn't right. Three days later we go back over there for Varsity, and he tells me that he was right, and I should have been ejected. I cited the rule you guys gave me on here, and after a brief arguement (light hearted), he said I'll prove it's not in there. He gets the book out, I tell him the rule number. It's there plain as day. He apologizes, says he'll write a letter on my behalf if needed. Said all that to say, Thank you to you guys that helped me out.

[stmaryrams]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

...It sounds like younger officials who put the ball down on an oob even though the team is walking across the floor...

You need to remember the context of putting the ball down. If I have a team that has been holding up the game because of these drawn out time outs, I'm going to give the first horn warning and another after the second. If they still don't break, putting the ball down and starting the count will suggest the urgency of breaking the huddle on time.
There are too many of these lower level coaches that think they get 1:30 on a full time out.

This is also something I address in my pregame talk to the coaches. Team properly equipped, identify coaching box, tell me full or 30, break on the first horn.

When I coached (back in the day) I will never forget the first time it happened to me - and it never happened again.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

I am a referee turned coach. Today in a game, one of my players recieved his fifth foul. I was notified and told I had thirty seconds. I waited for the first horn to put my sub in (it was late and I was trying to freeze the shooter). When the horn went off I was assessed a technical. I thought there was supposed to be a warning at 20 seconds, just like a 30 second time out. Can someone please help?

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

I do not know if anyone cares but I was not suspended from any games. Also, you may find this interesting. When this happened was in a tournament, we were not playing the host team, but the host coach was there to help "run the gym" whatever that means. When I got the second "T", I turned to him and said, "I get a horn at 20." This guy looked me right in the eye and said that wasn't right. Three days later we go back over there for Varsity, and he tells me that he was right, and I should have been ejected. I cited the rule you guys gave me on here, and after a brief arguement (light hearted), he said I'll prove it's not in there. He gets the book out, I tell him the rule number. It's there plain as day. He apologizes, says he'll write a letter on my behalf if needed. Said all that to say, Thank you to you guys that helped me out.

Thanks for following up on the outcome. I'm glad that something you learned here helped you. If you have other questions or situations and desire some answers we will be here for you.

As for the original situation, I would add that you should remember that the warning horn at 20 seconds was a fairly recent addition to the NFHS rules as it first appeared in the 2003-04 season.
Furthermore, coaches used to be expected to know how long 30 seconds is as they definitely used to get Ts for not meeting the 30 seconds prior to this rule change. Heck, every coach certainly seems to know how long three seconds is; all he has to do is count that off ten times!