Fifth foul procedure

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

there are plenty of coaches who have used the practice of getting a technical for strategic or tactical reasons.

And to me, IMHO, that is deliberately being unsporting in order to gain a perceived advantage. To me, IMHO, that coach has just placed more importance on winning than on sportsmanship. At the freshman HS level, IMHO, I think that's sad.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Yes we are judge, jury, and sometimes executioner on the court. But there are plenty of coaches who have used the practice of getting a technical for strategic or tactical reasons. My judgement of the act ends when I form the the T sign with my hands. Why he got the T is not important, whether it was an intentional ploy or an impulsive, childish reaction. Makes no nevermind to me after the fact.

It also makes no nevermind to me either in the way that I will call the game. I don't have to respect a coach to treat them equally and fairly. However, I don't respect coaches that use the so-called tactic of getting strategic "T"s. It's the complete antithesis of sportsmanship imo. They don't give a damn that they might be doing that in a Frosh game and their players will follow their lead, or that to get that "strategic technical" that they want they're crapping all over an official who might still be trying to learn his avocation.

That was my point.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

And to me, IMHO, that is deliberately being unsporting in order to gain a perceived advantage. To me, IMHO, that coach has just placed more importance on winning than on sportsmanship. At the freshman HS level, IMHO, I think that's sad.

What advantage? No different than committing a strategic or intentional foul. Whistle is blown, penalty is enforced.

You really think a coach cares what we think about their chosen coaching tactics?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You really think a coach cares what we think about their chosen coaching tactics?

Nope.

Why do you care what we think if our thinking doesn't affect the game?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What advantage? No different than committing a strategic or intentional foul. Whistle is blown, penalty is enforced.

The advantage is to get their kids riled up, to build the emotions of the team. That's exactly why the original poster got his first T -- because he thought it would fire up his team. And the difference between that and a strategic foul to stop the clock at the end of the game is the intentional unsporting behavior. In a freshman High School game.

You really think a coach cares what we think about their chosen coaching tactics?

Who has ever said anything about whether the coach cares what we think? Of course he doesn't care. He doesn't care about sportsmanship. So why would he care what we think about sportsmanship. That's completely beside the point. Irrelevant.

[Raymond]

Scrapper1, who cares if the coach is unsporting in any game? That's for the parent of his/her players to worry about, or for the school management to deal with. As an official I just penalize and move on.

Since it's not acceptable in a Freshman game, what level is the appropriate level to get a T rile up his team? JV, V, JuCo, NAIA, NCAA lower division, NCAA D1? You keep saying its only a freshman game. At what level do you no longer say it's only?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Scrapper1, who cares if the coach is unsporting in any game?

I do. That's what I've been trying to say for 2 days. That's the reason for the "IMHO" (in MY humble opinion).

As an official I just penalize and move on.

And I guess you do, too, then. If you didn't care, you would ignore it.

Since it's not acceptable in a Freshman game, what level is the appropriate level to get a T rile up his team? JV, V, JuCo, NAIA, NCAA lower division, NCAA D1? You keep saying its only a freshman game. At what level do you no longer say it's only?

I think that's the first legitimate point you've made in this conversation, to be honest. I think at the HS level, it's clearly not appropriate. High school basketball is supposed to an extension of the classroom. It's more important to teach them the life-lessons about winning and losing than to compile a winning record.

I think in college, that philosophy doesn't hold nearly as much. People's jobs depend on their win-loss records. And not $2,000 a year on top of your teacher's salary. We're talking full-time jobs. So I think it's understandable, if still somewhat regrettable, for coaches to place winning (and keeping their jobs) above sportsmanship at times.

[OklahomaRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I do. That's what I've been trying to say for 2 days. That's the reason for the "IMHO" (in MY humble opinion).

And I guess you do, too, then. If you didn't care, you would ignore it.

I think that's the first legitimate point you've made in this conversation, to be honest. I think at the HS level, it's clearly not appropriate. High school basketball is supposed to an extension of the classroom. It's more important to teach them the life-lessons about winning and losing than to compile a winning record.

I think in college, that philosophy doesn't hold nearly as much. People's jobs depend on their win-loss records. And not $2,000 a year on top of your teacher's salary. We're talking full-time jobs. So I think it's understandable, if still somewhat regrettable, for coaches to place winning (and keeping their jobs) above sportsmanship at times.

If you think that my job at the high school level doesn't depend on winning you are very very sorely mistaken. In a perfect world my job would not depend on winning but it does. High school basketball is very important to a lot of people, and believe it or not our jobs do depend on what happens on the court. I have never been called in the office over my classroom. I have been called in over basketball.

The thing about the strategic technical is I did not act unsporting. I did not blow up and scream and yell. I said very quietly the official was doing a terrible job. Once I received the T i sat down the rest of the game. I do not place sportsmanship above winning.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

The thing about the strategic technical is I did not act unsporting. I did not blow up and scream and yell. I said very quietly the official was doing a terrible job.

Wrong argument to try to make here...you most certainly did act unsporting if that is what you said. You don't have to yell and scream to be unsporting...a quiet butt-head is still a butt-head...had you tried to "defend" yourself by telling us that you were trying to protect your players, I might have bought it, but this argument is garbage...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

The thing about the strategic technical is I did not act unsporting. I did not blow up and scream and yell. I said very quietly the official was doing a terrible job. Once I received the T i sat down the rest of the game. I do not place sportsmanship above winning.

You deliberately denigrated an official in a freaking freshman game but that isn't unsporting. And as long as you crap all over the official quietly, that somehow makes it OK.

Oklahoma, you wouldn't recognize sportsmanship if it walked up behind you and kicked you in the azz. You're just.......plain sad.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

The thing about the strategic technical is I did not act unsporting. I did not blow up and scream and yell. I said very quietly the official was doing a terrible job. Once I received the T i sat down the rest of the game. I do not place sportsmanship above winning.

My opinion: It's wrong, but it's "allowed" (with the appropriate penalty).

If I'm acting in the role of parent, and the coach gets "too many" of these, then I complain. If I'm acting on the role of official, I penalize as listed in the rule, and keep my opinion of the coach to myself.

[OklahomaRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You deliberately denigrated an official in a freaking freshman game but that isn't unsporting. And as long as you crap all over the official quietly, that somehow makes it OK.

Oklahoma, you wouldn't recognize sportsmanship if it walked up behind you and kicked you in the azz. You're just.......plain sad.

Is it really necessary to call me plain said? We disagree, but do we really have to resort to that? I think your wrong, but I don't think your more or less of an official because of it. Your sportsmanship comment was way out of line too, my view on one point means I would know sportsmanship? C'mon disagree but dont attack my person.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by OklahomaRef

Is it really necessary to call me plain said? We disagree, but do we really have to resort to that? I think your wrong, but I don't think your more or less of an official because of it. Your sportsmanship comment was way out of line too, my view on one point means I would know sportsmanship? C'mon disagree but dont attack my person.

Coach, I have zero respect for people like you who completely ignore sportsmanship and then try to rationalize their doing so as being a legitimate coaching strategy. Do what you have to do when you're coaching. Just don't mention "sportsmanship" while you're doing so. What you're doing is as far from "sportsmanship" as you can get.

Btw, I also have no respect for your opinion of me, or any other official either. Iow, I could give a flying flip less what you think of officials. You've already shown what you think of us with your philosophy that it's OK to crap on an official if it's part of your coaching strategy. You just don't get it and you never will.

I do wish that you would take the "ref" out of your screen name though. It's inappropriate and misleading imo.

SAD!!!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

My opinion: It's wrong, but it's "allowed" (with the appropriate penalty).

If I'm acting in the role of parent, and the coach gets "too many" of these, then I complain. If I'm acting on the role of official, I penalize as listed in the rule, and keep my opinion of the coach to myself.

My sentiments exactly Bob.

[OklahomaRef]

It doesn't sound to me like you have much respect for anybody that doesn't see your point of view. I have been on both sides, officiating and coaching. I enjoy both. I don't think bad of officials, there are good ones and bad ones, just like coaches. You are not a coach, so you don't think like a coach. Your opinion comes directly from an officiating stand point. I can RESPECT that even if I think it is wrong.