traveling or pushing??

[81artmonk]

First I think you are all missing my point. Second, I haven't once questioned your personal abilitly to ref, yet by your responses, you have, some in polite, others in direct ways, put me down simpley for being a coach and/or ignorant of the rules, which I find kinda arrogant and condesending.
From the lastest barrage of responses, I find it hard to believe that you would think a ref wouldn't know the rules at the MS level. Your examples of a 13 yr old knowing more than a coach, I concede that that may be true, but in a rare situation. Why say that anyway? Do you think that because I am a coach, or do you think that some 13yr olds know more than you refs too??
Using parents calling me on the carpet for plays is completely different than reffing. reffing has a set standard rules. Coaching does not. One coach may run this while another doesn't. Although we are bound by human error, to link the two is delinquent.
My final point in all of this is, I was being honest. I never once condemed you personally. I never pointed a finger. I simply stated my opinion and what I got back was some refs who apparently feel slighted in some way. How, I don't know. Did I ever say that you were losers who didn't know what you were doing?? No I simply talked about the refs I experience...not you. To be honest again, I get the impression that you who responded to my posts think coaches are basically the bottom feeders of knowledge and talent. I heard someone make the comment,
"I find it arrogant that a middle school coach actually thinks he knows more than people that likely had to pass a written test and probably attended training classes to discuss everything from rules to mechanic."
So taking a written test means you now more?? Just asking. I think that is arrogant. For the record, I never said that I know more. NEVER! But to think that a ref is above the coach in knowledge is just as arrogant as thinking a 13 yr old is above a coach in knowledge. Listen, the bottom line is, I never called you out personally. I never bad mouthed you on this board. I never said that refs don't know anything. I simply shared my experiences and got tarred and feathered for it. I understand your plight. I would hate to be yelled at every game and think I'm a jerk by parents and coaches alike. I guess i will limit my posts to questions now, knowing that if I share my opinion as a coach I will be, belittled, put down, and made to feel stupid under the mighty knowledge and authority that is a ref! sorry if I hurt anyones feeling I will shut up in the future and only ask questions. thank you for answering my question in the beggining I appreciate your input and knowledge.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

First I think you are all missing my point. Second, I haven't once questioned your personal abilitly to ref, yet by your responses, you have, some in polite, others in direct ways, put me down simpley for being a coach and/or ignorant of the rules, which I find kinda arrogant and condesending.
From the lastest barrage of responses, I find it hard to believe that you would think a ref wouldn't know the rules at the MS level. Your examples of a 13 yr old knowing more than a coach, I concede that that may be true, but in a rare situation. Why say that anyway? Do you think that because I am a coach, or do you think that some 13yr olds know more than you refs too??
Using parents calling me on the carpet for plays is completely different than reffing. reffing has a set standard rules. Coaching does not. One coach may run this while another doesn't. Although we are bound by human error, to link the two is delinquent.
My final point in all of this is, I was being honest. I never once condemed you personally. I never pointed a finger. I simply stated my opinion and what I got back was some refs who apparently feel slighted in some way. How, I don't know. Did I ever say that you were losers who didn't know what you were doing?? No I simply talked about the refs I experience...not you. To be honest again, I get the impression that you who responded to my posts think coaches are basically the bottom feeders of knowledge and talent. I heard someone make the comment,
"I find it arrogant that a middle school coach actually thinks he knows more than people that likely had to pass a written test and probably attended training classes to discuss everything from rules to mechanic."
So taking a written test means you now more?? Just asking. I think that is arrogant. For the record, I never said that I know more. NEVER! But to think that a ref is above the coach in knowledge is just as arrogant as thinking a 13 yr old is above a coach in knowledge. Listen, the bottom line is, I never called you out personally. I never bad mouthed you on this board. I never said that refs don't know anything. I simply shared my experiences and got tarred and feathered for it. I understand your plight. I would hate to be yelled at every game and think I'm a jerk by parents and coaches alike. I guess i will limit my posts to questions now, knowing that if I share my opinion as a coach I will be, belittled, put down, and made to feel stupid under the mighty knowledge and authority that is a ref! sorry if I hurt anyones feeling I will shut up in the future and only ask questions. thank you for answering my question in the beggining I appreciate your input and knowledge.

Coach, whatinthehell is your problem?

You asked for opinions. You got 'em. If you don't like those opinions, well, that's just too bad. What did you expect anyway? That's how this forum works.

You got opinions from official's viewpoints. Deal with it. What would you do if you were out on the court with a whistle in your mouth and you had 2 sets of coaches and 5000 fans second-guessing everything that you did? Fair's fair.

[Dan_ref]

Spock...there are too. Many. Words. Can't...think must....escape

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

From the lastest barrage of responses, I find it hard to believe that you would think a ref wouldn't know the rules at the MS level.
Using parents calling me on the carpet for plays is completely different than reffing. reffing has a set standard rules. Coaching does not. One coach may run this while another doesn't. Although we are bound by human error, to link the two is delinquent.

Mr. RedskinNation, officials are assigned games by certain people, whether it be a supervisor, assignor, commissioner, or the school's Athletic Director. If you believe an official is improperly applying rules you need to relay that information to the proper authority. The refs do not work directly for you, the coach. It is not your business to wave a rulebook in front of an official and tell him he is wrong. Also, a few of your scenarios involved judgement of an official, not rules application.

Now answer me this, where are new officials supposed to get their training and learn the ropes? Where I live, Middle School games serve a large portion of that function. So yes, you are going to have officials who don't have a command of the rulebook.

Your problem in this forum is that you are being disingenuous. You ask our input for certain situations then argue when you don't like our answers. I think you're really here so you can go back to one of your offending officials and say "See, I told you so."

You're like one of those guests who come on Dr. Phil, ask for help and advice, then get mad when they don't hear what they want to hear, then end up arguing with Dr. Phil.

If you are just looking for confirmation that MS officials aren't the best officials in the world, I'm sure there are plenty of coaching forums where you can vent and get all the affirmation you need in return.

And lastly, quit whining with all this refs must think "coaches are basically the bottom feeders" garbage. We officials disagree with each other all the time and we have all kinds of "popcorn" worthy spectacles within the confines of this forum, the locker room after a game, or the nearest Bar & Grill. You aren't getting any kind of special mistreatment that we don't already give to each other.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You're like one of those guests who come on Dr. Phil, ask for help and advice, then get mad when they don't hear what they want to hear, then end up arguing with Dr. Phil.

Hey isn't admitting that you watch Dr Phil a guy card violation ??????

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

First I think you are all missing my point. Second, I haven't once questioned your personal abilitly to ref, yet by your responses, you have, some in polite, others in direct ways, put me down simpley for being a coach and/or ignorant of the rules, which I find kinda arrogant and condesending.

I think you really need to learn reading comprehension.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

From the lastest barrage of responses, I find it hard to believe that you would think a ref wouldn't know the rules at the MS level. Your examples of a 13 yr old knowing more than a coach, I concede that that may be true, but in a rare situation. Why say that anyway? Do you think that because I am a coach, or do you think that some 13yr olds know more than you refs too??

Once again I think you need to learn to understand what is written. If officials are starting at the MS level, do you think they know everything there is to know about officiating? That probably means they do not have the best grasp of the rules. Many rules and judgment are not grasped until several years of working games. Same goes for players and coaches when it comes to playing the game. Michael Jordan did not become a great player at the JH level.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Using parents calling me on the carpet for plays is completely different than reffing. reffing has a set standard rules. Coaching does not. One coach may run this while another doesn't. Although we are bound by human error, to link the two is delinquent.

I disagree with your answer, but that just shows you do not want to take responsibility for your actions.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

My final point in all of this is, I was being honest. I never once condemed you personally. I never pointed a finger. I simply stated my opinion and what I got back was some refs who apparently feel slighted in some way. How, I don't know. Did I ever say that you were losers who didn't know what you were doing?? No I simply talked about the refs I experience...not you. To be honest again, I get the impression that you who responded to my posts think coaches are basically the bottom feeders of knowledge and talent. I heard someone make the comment,"I find it arrogant that a middle school coach actually thinks he knows more than people that likely had to pass a written test and probably attended training classes to discuss everything from rules to mechanic."

Well I stated my opinion. If you do not like the opinion that you were given, well you have a couple of choices. You can either accept those opinions as being different than yours, or you can whine that people do not agree with you. I guess you do have another choice, you can leave and you will never have to worry about what anyone says.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

So taking a written test means you now more?? Just asking. I think that is arrogant. For the record, I never said that I know more. NEVER! But to think that a ref is above the coach in knowledge is just as arrogant as thinking a 13 yr old is above a coach in knowledge. Listen, the bottom line is, I never called you out personally. I never bad mouthed you on this board. I never said that refs don't know anything. I simply shared my experiences and got tarred and feathered for it. I understand your plight. I would hate to be yelled at every game and think I'm a jerk by parents and coaches alike. I guess i will limit my posts to questions now, knowing that if I share my opinion as a coach I will be, belittled, put down, and made to feel stupid under the mighty knowledge and authority that is a ref! sorry if I hurt anyones feeling I will shut up in the future and only ask questions. thank you for answering my question in the beggining I appreciate your input and knowledge.

I can speak for myself only. I never said they knew more, I said they have been through more training than you have. Even if all an official did was have to take a test that is more rules knowledge than the vast majority of coaches go through in a career. Then depending on the area, that official had to take classes and other requirements before even stepping onto the court. Now we are assuming that we are talking about brand new refs. It is very likely that you got veterans that have likely worked more games in a season than you will see in a few years. I do not know I also do not ultimately care. But you were given a lot of answers and you choose not to accept them. None of us where there and as far as I am concerned, you are a middle school coach. I seriously doubt that anyone is putting full page articles about your team on a game by game basis. Put the games in perspective. We have already told you why you do not get the top officials and you keep insisting that we cannot accept what happen in games we did not witness. Dude, get a grip and teach your players better. I cannot imagine that there are many teams at that level that are so good that night in and night out you are struggling to compete with equally talented teams and the officials are the reason you are losing.

Peace

[81artmonk]

Thank you Junker. You seem to be the only one here who sees my point and gets that I am not trashing Refs. Thanks you

[81artmonk]

"Well I stated my opinion. If you do not like the opinion that you were given, well you have a couple of choices. You can either accept those opinions as being different than yours, or you can whine that people do not agree with you. I guess you do have another choice, you can leave and you will never have to worry about what anyone says."

You guys just don't get it! I am not arguing your opinion on what I origianlly asked a question about. why is it that if you say something I can't discuss it without being labeled a Middle school coach? Did any of you read my posts. I am not calling you out!! I am not saying you are stupid!! I am not saying that I now more than you, that is what YOU are reading into my posts. Give me an example of where I have said I know more than you. Give me an example where I have said refs are stupid and don't know anything. Just becuase I disagree with Refs I deal with doesn't mean I think all refs are stupid. Why can't it be I thought that particular ref got it wrong??
God amlighty, if this is what someone gets for sharing his opinion, I hate to see what you guys do to people who you really don't like!! I give up! sharing my opinion has gotten me labeled as something less than smart. not knowing what I am talking about. Picked on for possible gramatical errors. and basically raged on. And for what?? I again state, that at no point did I ever say I know more. That you guys didn't know anything or put you down,call you out or in any way belittle you. Yet for my opinoin that is what I got. Lastly I want to thank JUNKER for being the only person on here who has been firm but FRIENDLY and hasn't taked down to me!! Big thanks to JUNKER!!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

God amlighty, if this is what someone gets for sharing his opinion, I hate to see what you guys do to people who you really don't like!!

Exactly. A whole bunch of "someones" here shared their opinions with you, and you simply refuse to accept that fact because you don't agree with their opinions.

That's your problem, not theirs.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

...a lot of non-specific accusations.....followed by a lot of hyberbole...

I missed the part where I said you called anybody stupid. I also missed the part where you addressed any of my questions and assertions directed towards you.

But I did tell you to quit whining, which I don't retract in light of your latest rhetoric-laced post.

Are you above answering direct questions?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

You guys just don't get it! I am not arguing your opinion on what I origianlly asked a question about. why is it that if you say something I can't discuss it without being labeled a Middle school coach?

You are not a Middle school coach?

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Did any of you read my posts. I am not calling you out!! I am not saying you are stupid!! I am not saying that I now more than you, that is what YOU are reading into my posts. Give me an example of where I have said I know more than you. Give me an example where I have said refs are stupid and don't know anything.

Wow, are we sensitive today. No one even suggested your claims.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Just becuase I disagree with Refs I deal with doesn't mean I think all refs are stupid. Why can't it be I thought that particular ref got it wrong??

Hey man, I do not care about what happens at the local Junior High around the corner from my house, why would I care about what you say here about what took place at a Middle School game in likely another state or jurisdiction?

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

God amlighty, if this is what someone gets for sharing his opinion, I hate to see what you guys do to people who you really don't like!!

What I do not understand, no one has called you a name. There are people that have disagreed with you (including myself). Not sure where dislike even came into the equation. I can see you are a paranoid coach who thinks everything someone does in a sport is about you.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I give up! sharing my opinion has gotten me labeled as something less than smart. not knowing what I am talking about. Picked on for possible gramatical errors. and basically raged on. And for what?? I again state, that at no point did I ever say I know more. That you guys didn't know anything or put you down,call you out or in any way belittle you. Yet for my opinoin that is what I got. Lastly I want to thank JUNKER for being the only person on here who has been firm but FRIENDLY and hasn't taked down to me!! Big thanks to JUNKER!!!

Once again, no one that I have read has called you names, they just disagreed with you. Disagreement (at least for me) is never personal. I do not even know you. I know nothing about you other than what you have stated here. Then you want to talk about how we would act if someone does not like us? Maybe it is time to look in the mirror and realize that you came here and asked a question. Then you talked about your unsportsmanlike behavior and justified it by saying you knew more than the officials that worked your games. I know I even agreed that you are not getting the top-notch officials because most top-notch officials are not going to work middle school ball. But just because you say something happen, does not make it so. I bet if we asked the officials about these situations, at the very least there might be different version of the events and likely what you say happen is not completely true. Considering how sensitive you are, I can see why you are having some of these problems.

Peace

[81artmonk]

Badnewsref, please do not miss qoute me. I never said what you posted in a box as what I origanally said.

I also went back and reviewed what I said to see what might have brought about such debate, and I believe it was the rule book statement telling the ref he was wrong. Oh well. Like I said, I'm done. Having marinated on this debate I have come to see that we just don't see eye to eye. And that's ok, cause that is what makes this forum good. Even though I get the impression that you guys see me as a A**hole coach who is arrogant and thinks he knows it all, I'm really not. I appreciate all your input so I can be a better coach and learn. I just never thought that one statement would spark such debate. I truelly hope that this doesn't tarnish your openess to share your knowledge with schmucks like me!!
thanks

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I also went back and reviewed what I said to see what might have brought about such debate, and I believe it was the rule book statement telling the ref he was wrong.

It seems it was partly that, and also your incorrect statement regarding incidental contact. Most here would agree on two things: a coach should never approach an official with a rule book at a later date with a "I'm right and you're wrong" approach - especially regarding a scenario that is completely judgement-based, like your original post. (Which, by the way, if it happened just as you described certainly sounds like it could have been a foul, but we'll never know because we didn't see it.)

Secondly, having you tell us that you do approach officials when they "get something wrong," and then having you demonstrate that you don't understand the basic rules regarding incidental contact resulting in a violation AND traveling, plus saying that these officials in your games SHOULDN'T call all violations, puts your premise in question. I think that's all that was being suggested.

The bottom line is, what happened in your game may or may not have been a foul. The official calling it may or may not have seen the same thing you did. We're not perfect, coaches aren't perfect, players aren't perfect. But your posting style certainly suggests that you expect us to be and you feel you have a greater understanding of the rules than the officials calling your games. I'd suggest simply not making that assumption from now on, asking for explanations from officials when you feel you need them, and after the game if you determine the official improperly applied a rule - not made a judgement call differently than you would have - you should talk to the assignor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Having marinated on this debate I have come to see that we just don't see eye to eye.

And now you're stewing about it. How appropriate.

[Back In The Saddle]

So let's just recap briefly. The ref's you've shown the rulebook to didn't respond favorably. The refs here didn't respond favorably when you described this tactic either. I'd have to say that this just isn't working for you, Coach. Perhaps it's time to try a new approach.

I was sincere when I extended my welcome to you to the forum. I still feel the same way. You obviously came here looking for informed answers. Whether or not you expected to get such a different point of view, I hope you'll find it valuable.