traveling or pushing??

[81artmonk]

Thank you Junker. You seem to be the only one here who sees my point and gets that I am not trashing Refs. Thanks you

[81artmonk]

"Well I stated my opinion. If you do not like the opinion that you were given, well you have a couple of choices. You can either accept those opinions as being different than yours, or you can whine that people do not agree with you. I guess you do have another choice, you can leave and you will never have to worry about what anyone says."

You guys just don't get it! I am not arguing your opinion on what I origianlly asked a question about. why is it that if you say something I can't discuss it without being labeled a Middle school coach? Did any of you read my posts. I am not calling you out!! I am not saying you are stupid!! I am not saying that I now more than you, that is what YOU are reading into my posts. Give me an example of where I have said I know more than you. Give me an example where I have said refs are stupid and don't know anything. Just becuase I disagree with Refs I deal with doesn't mean I think all refs are stupid. Why can't it be I thought that particular ref got it wrong??
God amlighty, if this is what someone gets for sharing his opinion, I hate to see what you guys do to people who you really don't like!! I give up! sharing my opinion has gotten me labeled as something less than smart. not knowing what I am talking about. Picked on for possible gramatical errors. and basically raged on. And for what?? I again state, that at no point did I ever say I know more. That you guys didn't know anything or put you down,call you out or in any way belittle you. Yet for my opinoin that is what I got. Lastly I want to thank JUNKER for being the only person on here who has been firm but FRIENDLY and hasn't taked down to me!! Big thanks to JUNKER!!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

God amlighty, if this is what someone gets for sharing his opinion, I hate to see what you guys do to people who you really don't like!!

Exactly. A whole bunch of "someones" here shared their opinions with you, and you simply refuse to accept that fact because you don't agree with their opinions.

That's your problem, not theirs.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

...a lot of non-specific accusations.....followed by a lot of hyberbole...

I missed the part where I said you called anybody stupid. I also missed the part where you addressed any of my questions and assertions directed towards you.

But I did tell you to quit whining, which I don't retract in light of your latest rhetoric-laced post.

Are you above answering direct questions?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

You guys just don't get it! I am not arguing your opinion on what I origianlly asked a question about. why is it that if you say something I can't discuss it without being labeled a Middle school coach?

You are not a Middle school coach?

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Did any of you read my posts. I am not calling you out!! I am not saying you are stupid!! I am not saying that I now more than you, that is what YOU are reading into my posts. Give me an example of where I have said I know more than you. Give me an example where I have said refs are stupid and don't know anything.

Wow, are we sensitive today. No one even suggested your claims.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Just becuase I disagree with Refs I deal with doesn't mean I think all refs are stupid. Why can't it be I thought that particular ref got it wrong??

Hey man, I do not care about what happens at the local Junior High around the corner from my house, why would I care about what you say here about what took place at a Middle School game in likely another state or jurisdiction?

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

God amlighty, if this is what someone gets for sharing his opinion, I hate to see what you guys do to people who you really don't like!!

What I do not understand, no one has called you a name. There are people that have disagreed with you (including myself). Not sure where dislike even came into the equation. I can see you are a paranoid coach who thinks everything someone does in a sport is about you.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I give up! sharing my opinion has gotten me labeled as something less than smart. not knowing what I am talking about. Picked on for possible gramatical errors. and basically raged on. And for what?? I again state, that at no point did I ever say I know more. That you guys didn't know anything or put you down,call you out or in any way belittle you. Yet for my opinoin that is what I got. Lastly I want to thank JUNKER for being the only person on here who has been firm but FRIENDLY and hasn't taked down to me!! Big thanks to JUNKER!!!

Once again, no one that I have read has called you names, they just disagreed with you. Disagreement (at least for me) is never personal. I do not even know you. I know nothing about you other than what you have stated here. Then you want to talk about how we would act if someone does not like us? Maybe it is time to look in the mirror and realize that you came here and asked a question. Then you talked about your unsportsmanlike behavior and justified it by saying you knew more than the officials that worked your games. I know I even agreed that you are not getting the top-notch officials because most top-notch officials are not going to work middle school ball. But just because you say something happen, does not make it so. I bet if we asked the officials about these situations, at the very least there might be different version of the events and likely what you say happen is not completely true. Considering how sensitive you are, I can see why you are having some of these problems.

Peace

[81artmonk]

Badnewsref, please do not miss qoute me. I never said what you posted in a box as what I origanally said.

I also went back and reviewed what I said to see what might have brought about such debate, and I believe it was the rule book statement telling the ref he was wrong. Oh well. Like I said, I'm done. Having marinated on this debate I have come to see that we just don't see eye to eye. And that's ok, cause that is what makes this forum good. Even though I get the impression that you guys see me as a A**hole coach who is arrogant and thinks he knows it all, I'm really not. I appreciate all your input so I can be a better coach and learn. I just never thought that one statement would spark such debate. I truelly hope that this doesn't tarnish your openess to share your knowledge with schmucks like me!!
thanks

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I also went back and reviewed what I said to see what might have brought about such debate, and I believe it was the rule book statement telling the ref he was wrong.

It seems it was partly that, and also your incorrect statement regarding incidental contact. Most here would agree on two things: a coach should never approach an official with a rule book at a later date with a "I'm right and you're wrong" approach - especially regarding a scenario that is completely judgement-based, like your original post. (Which, by the way, if it happened just as you described certainly sounds like it could have been a foul, but we'll never know because we didn't see it.)

Secondly, having you tell us that you do approach officials when they "get something wrong," and then having you demonstrate that you don't understand the basic rules regarding incidental contact resulting in a violation AND traveling, plus saying that these officials in your games SHOULDN'T call all violations, puts your premise in question. I think that's all that was being suggested.

The bottom line is, what happened in your game may or may not have been a foul. The official calling it may or may not have seen the same thing you did. We're not perfect, coaches aren't perfect, players aren't perfect. But your posting style certainly suggests that you expect us to be and you feel you have a greater understanding of the rules than the officials calling your games. I'd suggest simply not making that assumption from now on, asking for explanations from officials when you feel you need them, and after the game if you determine the official improperly applied a rule - not made a judgement call differently than you would have - you should talk to the assignor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Having marinated on this debate I have come to see that we just don't see eye to eye.

And now you're stewing about it. How appropriate.

[Back In The Saddle]

So let's just recap briefly. The ref's you've shown the rulebook to didn't respond favorably. The refs here didn't respond favorably when you described this tactic either. I'd have to say that this just isn't working for you, Coach. Perhaps it's time to try a new approach.

I was sincere when I extended my welcome to you to the forum. I still feel the same way. You obviously came here looking for informed answers. Whether or not you expected to get such a different point of view, I hope you'll find it valuable.

[Adam]

I'm going to add my two bits here.
The ref you talked about in the original post was right. It's a judgment call. You're wrong in saying it's not open to interpretation. Look at rule 4-27; it clearly states that foul calls are jugdment calls. If a player pushes another one, and that other player later travels, it doesn't mean the relationship between the two events is causal. That's for the ref the determine.

If the ref thinks the push did not cause the travel (maybe he thought she was off balance before or maybe he thought she gathered herself first), then he's going to call the travel. If the ref thinks the push caused the travel, he'll call the push.

The fact is, it's a judgment call for which the responsibility is on two people in the gym.
Furthermore, most middle school refs are struggling with how to apply these things. He may have initially thought the contact was incidental and didn't want to come in with the late foul. I've called the late foul on this play; but it takes some experience to do that.

[81artmonk]

Jurassic Referee.......You are just rude and cranky!!! That statement simply says that I had thought about what was said and that having taken it in, I don't agree with some of it. To make the assumption that I am mad and stewing about it is a stretch and putting words in my mouth and I don't appreciate it. My last post I thought was extremely gracious and extending an olive branch to you guys for arguing, and your last post to me was not. For your information I am not stewing, I am not mad, but having read your post I now am. Thanks. To you other REFS who responded after my last post, I greatly thank you for your graciousness and openness and kindness for sharing with me. It gives me hope that we can all debate without being rude and condecending.

[BillyMac]

I worked a boys varsity game Friday night with the highest ranked partner that I've worked with in a long time. In our post-game conference he said that he wanted one call back. A-1 was dribbling in the backcourt near the sideline when he got slightly bumped by B-1. According to my partner, A-1 was able to dribble "through" the slight bump, so my partner passed on the foul. The next thing to happen, was A-1 stepping on the sideline, with my partner awarding the ball to Team B for a throw-in. Unfortunately, this happened right in front of the Team A bench and Team A coach, who gave my partner an earful. My partner, in our post-game conference, said that he had wished that he had called the foul.

If officiating was easy, they wouldn't need to pay each of us $80.00 a game to get qualified officials. If officiating was easy, we wouldn't need to constantly go to clinics. If officiating was easy, there would be no need for a forum, such as this one. It's hard to do. If you've never done it, you don't know what it's like to be in our shoes.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Jurassic Referee.......You are just rude and cranky!!!

It gives me hope that we can all debate without being rude and condecending.

You spelled "condescending" wrong.

Other than that, for the first time, I pretty much gotta agree with you. Resume marinating.