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Originally Posted by 81artmonk
While I agree with much of what you guys have said, I must take issue with some of it. The point made that showing the ref rules wasn't a good idea by using the example of my own team player pointing out something to me, isn't a valid example. First, I am older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old player.
If a player pointed out a rule, that I was wrong on and he/she used a rule book to show me I would be open to see it and admit, if I was wrong to my lack of knowledge on my part.
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While you may be older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old, it is also likely true that a referee, even of limited experience, that has at the very least passed a written test and likely had additional training is more knowledgable concerning officiating a basketball game.
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Originally Posted by 81artmonk
I think it is arrogance, which some, not all refs have, to think that every call they make, at that level is true and by the book. I've had at times one ref tell the other ref " dude, you know he's right, you got the call wrong." and still they refuse to admit they were wrong.
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To a certain extent I think this is a little bit of the attitude that a referee must have. If s/he is constantly questioning every call s/he makes then is going to be limited by him/her questioning the call. Furthermore, I doubt that you've ever had one official question another within earshot of you or any other coach/player/fan/etc. When those types of conversations do occur they take place away from everybody else (or at least they should). Even if this has happened once, I don't see it happening repeatedly as you suggest by using the word "times" (times being plural and therefore meaning more once).
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Originally Posted by 81artmonk
I am asking that since those players at that level aren't at a maturity of talent yet, need to be cut some slack on certain aspects of the game. Like traveling, picking up a pivit foot slightly to get a pass off, or a minor double dribble. Like I said if you called all of those strickly, the game would last 3 hours.
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For somebody that has been using the rulebook to make his point so much, I would think that you would expect all officials not to call anything on picking up a pivot foot to get a pass off. This is specifically one reason that the pivot foot can be picked up. The only thing that can't be done once the pivot foot is picked up is putting it back down or starting a dribble. Additionally this is the place the players should be learning. If we allow them to travel or commit "minor double dribbles" then they will continue doing so into their HS level games and not think anything of it until they can't make the team and the coach tells them that its because they can't dribble well enough. Instead of complaining about refs making such calls, teach your players not to make such mistakes. Just because they are middle schoolers and at an awkward developmental stage, that doesn't make them incapable of learning to do better.
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Originally Posted by 81artmonk
My final point is this. It's not that I go out and say "hey look, you were wrong" to the ref and fly the rule book in his face. I will usually go to them after the game and ask them what was their reasoning for certain calls, and why they called it that way. If I get an answer that contradicts the rules or isn't a call that is flat out wrong based on the rules, the next time I see them I use the rule book as a guide. Remeber what you said last week, well I researched it and this is what I found, I than show them the rule and even if they read it, they won't admit to being wrong. I understand you are human, and make mistakes, just like me, but to think that as a ref you are the be all end all to knowledge of rules is ignorant. Just like thinking I, as a coach am the same. I am not. I try to keep up as well with the rules so as not to make an *** of myself to a ref. When I am chastised by a ref and go home and reseach it, I will, next time I see him tell him he was right and I learned something. Yet in my experience, I have never had a ref do that to me.
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I think the thing that is missing from your logic is that the ref is not directly responsible to you for the performance of his/her job. It is no more his/her job to coach your team, teach you how to coach, or educate you on the rules (which knowing the rules IMO should be a significant part of coaching and not something that refs should be expected to do during or even after the game, it should be a prerequisite) than it is yours to correct the referee on his interpretation of the rules or their application to the given situation.
This isn't to say that we are above explaining our calls on the court, but that explaination shouldn't have to include "a travel by rule occurs when..."; or that we are above listening to your side, but that should not include waiving a rule book at us at any point before, during or after a game.
I typically hand 3 business cards to game management when I arrive and ask them to give one to each coach and keep one for the AD to use should they have any questions or need to contact me, but I'm not going to play 20 questions or try to argue with coaches before, during or after games.
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Originally Posted by 81artmonk
Just as funny end to this rambling, I once had a ref I coached with who was as I called him a vengence ref. If you pissed him off, which could on some days be just saying "aw com'n" he would than begin making calls to punish my team. Other teams also, I wasn't the only one. I kid you not, he once called a T on me for nothing, He thought I said something, and T'd me up. At the time I wasn't even sure what happened and what foul was called, I asked him who is the foul on and what for?? He told me "you, you arrogant *******" and T'd me again and threw me out of the game. Which I didn't leave, but that is another story. He gained enough complaints that he was banned from reffing anymore....thank GOD!! but I thought you guys might find that funny.
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Finally, is it possible that he was giving you a T for waiving your rulebook or doing something else to undermine his authority? I'm not saying this guy was the golden boy of officiating, but I know many referees that aren't going to allow for anything that undermines their authority to perform their duty. I'm just saying that it is possible for non-verbal issues resulting in a T.