traveling or pushing??

[81artmonk]

Sorry guys I have a lot of questions.

Player A gains possession of a shot ball on the rebound. Player B is trying to do the same, and in the proccess runs into Player A and causes her to fall down. Again I was taught that this is a foul. although in the game, the Ref called it traveling. He defended himself by using the old addage, it's a grey area and open for interpretation. Reading from other posts, I argue that contact caused the other player to fall therefore there isn't any grey area, it would be either charging or pushing. Am I right??

[tjones1]

Sounds like it to me. Player B displaced player A, thus causing an advantage and causing player A to fall down. Sounds like a foul to me.

[swkansasref33]

I have a push on B. He/she clearly gained an advantage by displacing player A

[SmokeEater]

To me timing is everything on a play like this. Were they both in contact withthe ball at the same time as the contact occurred. In other words was it a Bang, Bang play. Could the official have seen the contact as incidental when no one had possesion yet? Too many factors to consider without being there to see the play. I won't make a judgement on this one.

[Camron Rust]

In general, I agree with the answers provided above (foul). However, if the timing is right....A and B get to the ball at the same time and bump each other from equally advantageous positions...I've got no foul....but a travel. While the contact may have caused the other to fall, the contact would not be illegal. Tough luck for the one that falls.

I had this EXACT call (bit at midcourt) in a 2 point game with <10 seconds left a few years ago....both players converged at the ball at nearly full speed. Both got their hands on the ball at the same time. They met belly-to-belly. One pulled a little harder and came away with the ball but also fell down. Travel.

[GarthB]

Provided that what you "saw" is what happened, I've got a push on B.

However, I'm always cautious on these because I don't know what the Ref saw, where the Ref was, where you were......

I've had a number of instances where a coach, fan or player, from his angle "saw" contact when in fact there was at least a foot of space between the players. The most common occurs on a fast break when the defender catches up to the shooter and takes a swipe, missing everything, but the shooter still blows the basket. From the bench, this can look very much like contact was made. The coach's brain connects the swipe to the miss and concludes contact.

[81artmonk]

If as you say the contact could have been incidental, than it would have been a non-call. PLayer A though gained possession about 7 feet prior to player B. PLayer B going for the Rebound too, saw that she didn't get it and than Kept her momentum in order to guard PLayer A. thus the contact and knock down. I see what you are saying, but had it been incidental, than no call should have been made. Rather the Ref saw fit to call it traveling. Which in any stretch of the imagination, could have only been by her falling down without any contact or tripping. Since contact occured, I really don't see his call being correct.

[SmokeEater]

When you explain it this way, I would have to agree that it most likely "could have" been a push or block.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

If as you say the contact could have been incidental, than it would have been a non-call. PLayer A though gained possession about 7 feet prior to player B. PLayer B going for the Rebound too, saw that she didn't get it and than Kept her momentum in order to guard PLayer A. thus the contact and knock down. I see what you are saying, but had it been incidental, than no call should have been made. Rather the Ref saw fit to call it traveling. Which in any stretch of the imagination, could have only been by her falling down without any contact or tripping. Since contact occured, I really don't see his call being correct.

Wrong. If there's incidental contact and then the player travels, it's still traveling. You don't ignore the violation just because there was incidental contact.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Sorry guys I have a lot of questions.

Player A gains possession of a shot ball on the rebound. Player B is trying to do the same, and in the proccess runs into Player A and causes her to fall down. Again I was taught that this is a foul. although in the game, the Ref called it traveling. He defended himself by using the old addage, it's a grey area and open for interpretation. Reading from other posts, I argue that contact caused the other player to fall therefore there isn't any grey area, it would be either charging or pushing. Am I right??

Ok, 84garyclark, what are asking about now is not a rule, but a judgement call by an official. To whom did he defend his call? Where were you taught that this is a foul? Can you give us a little background as to your association to the game? New official, coach, scorekeeper, parent, fan? Just curious.

[81artmonk]

I am a coach, trying to learn all the time. If it is incidental contact, than how could it be traveling. If the contact at the point causes the other player to fall than that isn't incidental. I see your point, about the two players in your game. But in this one. My player had gaind possession of the ball stopped, and the other player ran into her with her hands striaght up attempting to defend her. The contact caused her to lose balance and fall to her butt. again I see your point, but if the contact casues you to go to the ground I don't see how that can be incidental.
You have to understand, I coach in a middle school level. Refs aren't the best. Nor are they very knowledgable. Most Times I am showing them the rule book. Oft times when shown their error, they won't admit it. All I ever want from Refs is a fair game. Or as fair as you can get with humans invovled. Consistancy! Too many times, our refs allow WWF in the first period than call everything in the 2nd and than get even pickier in the 3rd. My mindset is that at that level of skill and age, you have to ref them different. Let them play, you may let minor things go you normally wouldn't otherwise, otherwise you would be there all day shooting freethrows. You call the major violations or ones in which it swings the advantage to your team. But I ramble....sorry. I will get off my soapbox now.

[tjones1]

Coach,

You might want to re-read incidental contact (4-27). Also, these officials are learning and so are your players. Cut them some slack, it isn't the end of the world if they mess up, because we've all been in those shoes. All officials start at these levels and too many times Jr. High coaches run them straight out the door because they aren't willing to let them learn, they expect them to be perfect as soon as they step on the court.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Most Times I am showing them the rule book.

Not during the game, I hope. If you have, you're lucky you haven't been shown the parking lot.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I am a coach, trying to learn all the time. If it is incidental contact, than how could it be traveling. If the contact at the point causes the other player to fall than that isn't incidental.

Incidental contact equals no foul. It is that simple. Anything that happens as a result of the incidental contact still applies. So if a player bounces off a player in a legal way, then you can have a travel call. It really is that simple.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I see your point, about the two players in your game. But in this one. My player had gaind possession of the ball stopped, and the other player ran into her with her hands striaght up attempting to defend her. The contact caused her to lose balance and fall to her butt. again I see your point, but if the contact casues you to go to the ground I don't see how that can be incidental.

All you are talking about is judgment. All contact is not illegal or a foul.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

You have to understand, I coach in a middle school level. Refs aren't the best. Nor are they very knowledgable. Most Times I am showing them the rule book. Oft times when shown their error, they won't admit it. All I ever want from Refs is a fair game. Or as fair as you can get with humans invovled. Consistancy! Too many times, our refs allow WWF in the first period than call everything in the 2nd and than get even pickier in the 3rd. My mindset is that at that level of skill and age, you have to ref them different. Let them play, you may let minor things go you normally wouldn't otherwise, otherwise you would be there all day shooting freethrows. You call the major violations or ones in which it swings the advantage to your team. But I ramble....sorry. I will get off my soapbox now.

As you stated you are a middle school level coach. On that description alone you are not getting D1 and NBA officials that have decades of games under their belts working those games. Also as an official we are not seeing the most talented and competent players and coaches either. Middle school is what it is. If you want a major improvement in your officials, you either are going to have to pay higher (which has been done in my area) than the average HS game or assignment and you will have to insist on trying to get some more experienced officials. The problem with the latter is officials that have been around do not want to work those games if for no other reason they will have to deal with coaches and fans that are unreasonable like it seems you are being here.

I do sympathize with you on some level, but your expectations have to be in check. I know when I work these games as a veteran, I always know I am very likely going to work with someone that is not capable to work the games I do on a regular basis. It comes with the territory and it is not like the players make these games easy to call. Often the players are falling over their own feet and coaches like you want a call just because someone hit the floor. Relax, take a deep breathe and have fun. It sounds like you are more concerned with calls that trying to let the players know that they can have fun in this game.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I am a coach, trying to learn all the time.

Congrats. Most of us sincerely wish more coaches would take this approach. I hope you find this forum a valuable resource, and don't be afraid to share a coach's perspective on things.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

If it is incidental contact, than how could it be traveling. If the contact at the point causes the other player to fall than that isn't incidental.

The severity of the contact has nothing to do with whether the contact is incidental or not. From 4-27: "ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe."

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

My player had gained possession of the ball, stopped, and the other player ran into her with her hands striaght up attempting to defend her. The contact caused her to lose balance and fall to her butt.

With that as background we can usefully discuss whether the contact was incidental or not. IMO, as you have described it, this scenario is not incidental contact. But, as I mentioned earlier, that determination has nothing to do with whether your girl got knocked on her can.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

You have to understand, I coach in a middle school level. Refs aren't the best.

Yep. True story. That's where beginning refs go to learn their skills. The real irony is that these games are often so bad and so quirky that they really require a more seasoned official to get them right. But hey, we all have to start somewhere (including players and coaches)

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Nor are they very knowledgable. Most Times I am showing them the rule book. Oft times when shown their error, they won't admit it.

I can't imagine any scenario where this is a good approach, Coach. How would you react if one of your players pulled out a coaching book during a game and told you that you were running your press wrong? Would you be inclined to say, "Thanks, Billy. I didn't realize I was messing that one up."? Heck no. During the game you've got a role to play and it involves you being the one in charge of your team, not vice versa. You don't want to lose your credibility or authority over your players like that. And you don't really have time to stop and rethink parts of your game right then. You may adjust later based on receiving new information, but in the moment you're going to do what you've been doing. Same story with officials. BTW, some officials would consider that a very serious attempt to show them up.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

All I ever want from Refs is a fair game. Or as fair as you can get with humans invovled. Consistancy! Too many times, our refs allow WWF in the first period than call everything in the 2nd and than get even pickier in the 3rd.

Yep. It's all part of learning to officiate. It ain't always pretty. The up side is that eventually some of them will get it and become better officials. Of course, then they'll move on to higher level games.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

My mindset is that at that level of skill and age, you have to ref them different. Let them play, you may let minor things go you normally wouldn't otherwise, otherwise you would be there all day shooting freethrows. You call the major violations or ones in which it swings the advantage to your team. But I ramble....sorry. I will get off my soapbox now.

While I agree with you in principle, the details are notoriously difficult to agree on. Your idea of let them play may be my idea of sanctioned mugging. Or vice versa. So the reality is that you and your team need to learn to adjust to how the officials are calling the game. I feel your pain about intra-game consistency, but what else can you do?