Pushing out of bounds

gostars · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 19, 2004, 12:35pm

A1 is dribbling to the basket and B1 cuts him off and A1 steps out of bounds. I had a foul on B1 because she was pushing A1 with her body and forcing A1 out of bounds. Is this right? how much contact should be allowed before a foul is called?

Jurassic Referee · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 19, 2004, 12:52pm

Just use the definition for a foul right out of the rulebook- i.e. "A personal fouls is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is alive, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements'. Always a judgement call, but I'd say that it's pretty likely that pushing an opponent with their body and forcing them OOB has probably "hindered" that opponent from performing their normal offensive duty. The amount of coantact doesn't really matter in this case. The fact that the defender gained a huge advantage from the contact- i.e. a turnover- certainly does matter.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 19th, 2004 at 01:55 PM]

JRutledge · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 19, 2004, 05:51pm

This also needs to be added, many times a dribbler tries to drive thru a defender near the sideline. I am not calling a foul when the offense did everything they can to take themselves to the defender. Sometimes the dribbler is trying to go somewhere when they have no room. I do not think it is right to just call a foul on a defender when they just moved their feet to get to a spot. The amount of contact is not an issue. But where the defender was standing and what the dribbler tried to do regardless of where the defender is standing can be an issue. At the very least it is with me.

Peace

gostars · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 19, 2004, 05:59pm

This was a case of the defense cutting the offensive player off.

JRutledge · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 19, 2004, 06:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by gostars
This was a case of the defense cutting the offensive player off.

Again, this is not an "automatic" call. I would have to see if the dribbler just got beat to the spot and continued to try to go thru the defender. That happens a lot and I know I am not calling a foul in that case. If anything, I probably would have a no call. No different if a dribbler tries to take on two or more defenders. It is not our job in my opinion to bail out a dribbler for making a bad offensive decisions.

Peace

gostars · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 19, 2004, 07:59pm

A1 was being guarded on the side by B1. B1 kept pushing his body into A1 and A1 ended up being forced out of bounds.

JRutledge · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 19, 2004, 09:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by gostars
A1 was being guarded on the side by B1. B1 kept pushing his body into A1 and A1 ended up being forced out of bounds.

Again, I would have to see it. But I see a lot of times where the dribbler tries to get a square peg in a round hole, by trying to get around a defender that is basically already in position. You asked a question, I gave you the best answer I can give without seeing the play. The defender has a right to move. Just because there is contact, does not mean the defender was doing anything illegal. Not sure what else you expect us to say. I was not there.

Peace

Black&White · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 19, 2004, 10:20pm

I think everyone has idenitfied the possible reasons for A1 stepping out. But again, I think we would only be able to give an accurate anwser if we had seen it happen.

Although from what you have discribed though it's in my opinion you made the right call, B1 had contact on A1 and caused disadvantage by pushing A1 out.

But I could be wrong...

ysong · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 21, 2004, 10:39am

I need some help on this too.

My understanding is that if when B1 still in his vertical plane and A1 manages to get his head and shoulder pass B1's torso in A1's establieshed path, even A1 has to twist his body in a strange way, even A1 has to create some contact, then B1 is responsible for the further contact that pushes A1 out of bound.

Is my understanding correct?

Thanks.

ysong

BktBallRef · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 21, 2004, 10:49am

No, it's not.

4-7-2b
If a guard has obtained a legal guarding position, the player with the ball must get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of the defensive player. If contact occurs on the torso of the defensive player, the dribbler is responsible for the contact.

ysong · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 21, 2004, 11:08am

Thanks BktBallRef for clarifing this.

Now I realize that if the dribble initiate contact on the front of defender's torso, then the dribbler's act is illegal.

But what is the contact is on the side (not the front) of the defender torso? What is the contact is minor AND on the side of defender's torso? do you still call it a foul?

Thanks again.

ysong

JRutledge · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 21, 2004, 11:16am

Quote:

Originally posted by ysong
Thanks BktBallRef for clarifing this.

Now I realize that if the dribble initiate contact on the front of defender's torso, then the dribbler's act is illegal.

But what is the contact is on the side (not the front) of the defender torso? What is the contact is minor AND on the side of defender's torso? do you still call it a foul?

Thanks again.

ysong

I do not think it is good officiating to call a foul on a dribbler that tries to squeeze by a defender. Of course if the defender used their body to simply push the dribbler out of bounds, that is one thing. But I do not think you should bail out the ball handler just because there is contact. No different than a shooter trying to take on 3 defenders and getting some contact on a circus attempt at a shot. The dribbler should realize that he has no where to go and make a better decision in my opinion.

Peace

ysong · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 21, 2004, 02:10pm

Thanks JRutledge for your insight.

I think my confusion is:
if a dribbler get his head and a shoulder past a defender's torso (with or without minor contact), does the defender still have the right to move laterally toward dribbler in an effort to cut off the dribbler but in fact, because the contact occurs, pushing dribbler out of his established path?

I would like to think the dribbler get to that space first, either by fake moves or faster moves, (otherwise he can not get pass his head and a shoulder without knocking the defender away), so it is the defender's fault to intensify the contact after it occurs. What do I miss here?

Thanks for any help on this.

ysong

Camron Rust · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 21, 2004, 02:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ysong
Thanks JRutledge for your insight.

I think my confusion is:
if a dribbler get his head and a shoulder past a defender's torso (with or without minor contact), does the defender still have the right to move laterally toward dribbler in an effort to cut off the dribbler but in fact, because the contact occurs, pushing dribbler out of his established path?

I would like to think the dribbler get to that space first, either by fake moves or faster moves, (otherwise he can not get pass his head and a shoulder without knocking the defender away), so it is the defender's fault to intensify the contact after it occurs. What do I miss here?

Once the dribbler gets head and shoulders past the defender, any contact by the defender that is from movement towards the dribbler is a foul on the defender.

A defender can NEVER be moving towards the opponent at the time of contact when considering block/charge.