traveling or pushing??

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Congrats. Most of us sincerely wish more coaches would take this approach. I hope you find this forum a valuable resource, and don't be afraid to share a coach's perspective on things.
The severity of the contact has nothing to do with whether the contact is incidental or not. From 4-27: "ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe."

With that as background we can usefully discuss whether the contact was incidental or not. IMO, as you have described it, this scenario is not incidental contact. But, as I mentioned earlier, that determination has nothing to do with whether your girl got knocked on her can.
Yep. True story. That's where beginning refs go to learn their skills. The real irony is that these games are often so bad and so quirky that they really require a more seasoned official to get them right. But hey, we all have to start somewhere (including players and coaches)I can't imagine any scenario where this is a good approach, Coach. How would you react if one of your players pulled out a coaching book during a game and told you that you were running your press wrong? Would you be inclined to say, "Thanks, Billy. I didn't realize I was messing that one up."? Heck no. During the game you've got a role to play and it involves you being the one in charge of your team, not vice versa. You don't want to lose your credibility or authority over your players like that. And you don't really have time to stop and rethink parts of your game right then. You may adjust later based on receiving new information, but in the moment you're going to do what you've been doing. Same story with officials. BTW, some officials would consider that a very serious attempt to show them up.

Yep. It's all part of learning to officiate. It ain't always pretty. The up side is that eventually some of them will get it and become better officials. Of course, then they'll move on to higher level games.

While I agree with you in principle, the details are notoriously difficult to agree on. Your idea of let them play may be my idea of sanctioned mugging. Or vice versa. So the reality is that you and your team need to learn to adjust to how the officials are calling the game. I feel your pain about intra-game consistency, but what else can you do?

This one gets my nomination for post of the week!!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

This one gets my nomination for post of the week!!

My mother will be soooo proud!

[81artmonk]

While I agree with much of what you guys have said, I must take issue with some of it. The point made that showing the ref rules wasn't a good idea by using the example of my own team player pointing out something to me, isn't a valid example. First, I am older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old player.
If a player pointed out a rule, that I was wrong on and he/she used a rule book to show me I would be open to see it and admit, if I was wrong to my lack of knowledge on my part. I think it is arrogance, which some, not all refs have, to think that every call they make, at that level is true and by the book. I've had at times one ref tell the other ref " dude, you know he's right, you got the call wrong." and still they refuse to admit they were wrong.
The other issue I have is what we should expect from refs at that level. Having players adjust who are 11-13 especially girls is asking way too much. I laughed when you stated the sactioned mugging, which is kinda my point. Obvisously you can't call every little thing, and that is not what I am asking for.
I am asking that since those players at that level aren't at a maturity of talent yet, need to be cut some slack on certain aspects of the game. Like traveling, picking up a pivit foot slightly to get a pass off, or a minor double dribble. Like I said if you called all of those strickly, the game would last 3 hours.
My final point is this. It's not that I go out and say "hey look, you were wrong" to the ref and fly the rule book in his face. I will usually go to them after the game and ask them what was their reasoning for certain calls, and why they called it that way. If I get an answer that contradicts the rules or isn't a call that is flat out wrong based on the rules, the next time I see them I use the rule book as a guide. Remeber what you said last week, well I researched it and this is what I found, I than show them the rule and even if they read it, they won't admit to being wrong. I understand you are human, and make mistakes, just like me, but to think that as a ref you are the be all end all to knowledge of rules is ignorant. Just like thinking I, as a coach am the same. I am not. I try to keep up as well with the rules so as not to make an *** of myself to a ref. When I am chastised by a ref and go home and reseach it, I will, next time I see him tell him he was right and I learned something. Yet in my experience, I have never had a ref do that to me.
Just as funny end to this rambling, I once had a ref I coached with who was as I called him a vengence ref. If you pissed him off, which could on some days be just saying "aw com'n" he would than begin making calls to punish my team. Other teams also, I wasn't the only one. I kid you not, he once called a T on me for nothing, He thought I said something, and T'd me up. At the time I wasn't even sure what happened and what foul was called, I asked him who is the foul on and what for?? He told me "you, you arrogant *******" and T'd me again and threw me out of the game. Which I didn't leave, but that is another story. He gained enough complaints that he was banned from reffing anymore....thank GOD!! but I thought you guys might find that funny.

[JRutledge]

I find it arrogant that a middle school coach actually thinks he knows more than people that likely had to pass a written test and probably attended training classes to discuss everything from rules to mechanic. I guess we all notice different stuff in they way people say things.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

While I agree with much of what you guys have said, I must take issue with some of it. The point made that showing the ref rules wasn't a good idea by using the example of my own team player pointing out something to me, isn't a valid example. First, I am older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old player.
If a player pointed out a rule, that I was wrong on and he/she used a rule book to show me I would be open to see it and admit, if I was wrong to my lack of knowledge on my part. I think it is arrogance, which some, not all refs have, to think that every call they make, at that level is true and by the book. I've had at times one ref tell the other ref " dude, you know he's right, you got the call wrong." and still they refuse to admit they were wrong.
The other issue I have is what we should expect from refs at that level. Having players adjust who are 11-13 especially girls is asking way too much. I laughed when you stated the sactioned mugging, which is kinda my point. Obvisously you can't call every little thing, and that is not what I am asking for.
I am asking that since those players at that level aren't at a maturity of talent yet, need to be cut some slack on certain aspects of the game. Like traveling, picking up a pivit foot slightly to get a pass off, or a minor double dribble. Like I said if you called all of those strickly, the game would last 3 hours.
My final point is this. It's not that I go out and say "hey look, you were wrong" to the ref and fly the rule book in his face. I will usually go to them after the game and ask them what was their reasoning for certain calls, and why they called it that way. If I get an answer that contradicts the rules or isn't a call that is flat out wrong based on the rules, the next time I see them I use the rule book as a guide. Remeber what you said last week, well I researched it and this is what I found, I than show them the rule and even if they read it, they won't admit to being wrong. I understand you are human, and make mistakes, just like me, but to think that as a ref you are the be all end all to knowledge of rules is ignorant. Just like thinking I, as a coach am the same. I am not. I try to keep up as well with the rules so as not to make an *** of myself to a ref. When I am chastised by a ref and go home and reseach it, I will, next time I see him tell him he was right and I learned something. Yet in my experience, I have never had a ref do that to me.
Just as funny end to this rambling, I once had a ref I coached with who was as I called him a vengence ref. If you pissed him off, which could on some days be just saying "aw com'n" he would than begin making calls to punish my team. Other teams also, I wasn't the only one. I kid you not, he once called a T on me for nothing, He thought I said something, and T'd me up. At the time I wasn't even sure what happened and what foul was called, I asked him who is the foul on and what for?? He told me "you, you arrogant *******" and T'd me again and threw me out of the game. Which I didn't leave, but that is another story. He gained enough complaints that he was banned from reffing anymore....thank GOD!! but I thought you guys might find that funny.

Methinks that you should concentrate more on coaching and less on officiating. You can't do both. And you're trying to.

Just an observation after reading your posts.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

While I agree with much of what you guys have said, I must take issue with some of it. The point made that showing the ref rules wasn't a good idea by using the example of my own team player pointing out something to me, isn't a valid example. First, I am older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old player.
If a player pointed out a rule, that I was wrong on and he/she used a rule book to show me I would be open to see it and admit, if I was wrong to my lack of knowledge on my part. I think it is arrogance, which some, not all refs have, to think that every call they make, at that level is true and by the book. I've had at times one ref tell the other ref " dude, you know he's right, you got the call wrong." and still they refuse to admit they were wrong.
The other issue I have is what we should expect from refs at that level. Having players adjust who are 11-13 especially girls is asking way too much. I laughed when you stated the sactioned mugging, which is kinda my point. Obvisously you can't call every little thing, and that is not what I am asking for.
I am asking that since those players at that level aren't at a maturity of talent yet, need to be cut some slack on certain aspects of the game. Like traveling, picking up a pivit foot slightly to get a pass off, or a minor double dribble. Like I said if you called all of those strickly, the game would last 3 hours.
My final point is this. It's not that I go out and say "hey look, you were wrong" to the ref and fly the rule book in his face. I will usually go to them after the game and ask them what was their reasoning for certain calls, and why they called it that way. If I get an answer that contradicts the rules or isn't a call that is flat out wrong based on the rules, the next time I see them I use the rule book as a guide. Remeber what you said last week, well I researched it and this is what I found, I than show them the rule and even if they read it, they won't admit to being wrong. I understand you are human, and make mistakes, just like me, but to think that as a ref you are the be all end all to knowledge of rules is ignorant. Just like thinking I, as a coach am the same. I am not. I try to keep up as well with the rules so as not to make an *** of myself to a ref. When I am chastised by a ref and go home and reseach it, I will, next time I see him tell him he was right and I learned something. Yet in my experience, I have never had a ref do that to me.
Just as funny end to this rambling, I once had a ref I coached with who was as I called him a vengence ref. If you pissed him off, which could on some days be just saying "aw com'n" he would than begin making calls to punish my team. Other teams also, I wasn't the only one. I kid you not, he once called a T on me for nothing, He thought I said something, and T'd me up. At the time I wasn't even sure what happened and what foul was called, I asked him who is the foul on and what for?? He told me "you, you arrogant *******" and T'd me again and threw me out of the game. Which I didn't leave, but that is another story. He gained enough complaints that he was banned from reffing anymore....thank GOD!! but I thought you guys might find that funny.

My example is perfectly valid. It involves an authority figure being challenged by one over whom he has authority, on the very subject he is supposed to be authoratative about. And despite your protests about how you're different, your own words betray you as a card-carrying member of the same club: "First, I am older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old player."

Fact is, I've got a 12 yo that will whip your tail on knowledge of any subject that she's passionately interested in; and there are quite a few of them. Age is no guarantee of superior knowledge, and neither is a position of authority. Yet we all ignorantly plod along assuming we know more than those around us who are much younger or over whom we preside. And yes, none of us likes to be proven wrong. No big surprise there. What you're grousing about is not so much arrogant referees as it is human nature, and every one of us here can tell you many similar stories about coaches.

As for well called MS games, I don't know what else to tell you except Good Luck. Most places the only qualfication to be a MS referee is a willingness to do the job and the ability to get off work in time for the games. It's difficult work. Generally the games aren't "games." A "game" has a flow to it. You can call a "game" consistently because you can identify plays that are similar to previous plays and call them the same. MS games are more like a thousand individual and completely random moments strung together with bits of bad ball handling. It's a great place to learn to make calls. But it's a hopeless place to learn to call a consistent "game."

So that's what you get, guys who are learning to make calls. And how does one learn to make calls? By screwing calls up. Repeatedly. Until they learn to get them right. And when an official finally learns to get calls right, he usually moves on to bigger games.

OTOH, coaches can be pretty random too. You say you don't want us to call every little foul or violation. We can agree on that. The trouble then is agreeing on which ones matter. I guarantee you, 100% money back and all that, that over the course of an entire game you will believe that a violation or foul your opponent commits needs to be called way more often than a similar violation or foul commited by one of your own players. And if the game is close I will equally guarantee that you want every single violation called on your opponent, and every bit of contact your opponent creates to be called a foul. At that point, for you, it's not at all about maturity and skill level, it's about trying to use us to gain a competitive advantage.

Bottom line: players, coaches, and officials participate in MS games for the experience. Generally none of them are very good. Those that get better move on to higher levels. Those that don't quit or stay at the MS level.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

While I agree with much of what you guys have said, I must take issue with some of it. The point made that showing the ref rules wasn't a good idea by using the example of my own team player pointing out something to me, isn't a valid example. First, I am older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old player.
If a player pointed out a rule, that I was wrong on and he/she used a rule book to show me I would be open to see it and admit, if I was wrong to my lack of knowledge on my part.

While you may be older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old, it is also likely true that a referee, even of limited experience, that has at the very least passed a written test and likely had additional training is more knowledgable concerning officiating a basketball game.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I think it is arrogance, which some, not all refs have, to think that every call they make, at that level is true and by the book. I've had at times one ref tell the other ref " dude, you know he's right, you got the call wrong." and still they refuse to admit they were wrong.

To a certain extent I think this is a little bit of the attitude that a referee must have. If s/he is constantly questioning every call s/he makes then is going to be limited by him/her questioning the call. Furthermore, I doubt that you've ever had one official question another within earshot of you or any other coach/player/fan/etc. When those types of conversations do occur they take place away from everybody else (or at least they should). Even if this has happened once, I don't see it happening repeatedly as you suggest by using the word "times" (times being plural and therefore meaning more once).

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I am asking that since those players at that level aren't at a maturity of talent yet, need to be cut some slack on certain aspects of the game. Like traveling, picking up a pivit foot slightly to get a pass off, or a minor double dribble. Like I said if you called all of those strickly, the game would last 3 hours.

For somebody that has been using the rulebook to make his point so much, I would think that you would expect all officials not to call anything on picking up a pivot foot to get a pass off. This is specifically one reason that the pivot foot can be picked up. The only thing that can't be done once the pivot foot is picked up is putting it back down or starting a dribble. Additionally this is the place the players should be learning. If we allow them to travel or commit "minor double dribbles" then they will continue doing so into their HS level games and not think anything of it until they can't make the team and the coach tells them that its because they can't dribble well enough. Instead of complaining about refs making such calls, teach your players not to make such mistakes. Just because they are middle schoolers and at an awkward developmental stage, that doesn't make them incapable of learning to do better.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

My final point is this. It's not that I go out and say "hey look, you were wrong" to the ref and fly the rule book in his face. I will usually go to them after the game and ask them what was their reasoning for certain calls, and why they called it that way. If I get an answer that contradicts the rules or isn't a call that is flat out wrong based on the rules, the next time I see them I use the rule book as a guide. Remeber what you said last week, well I researched it and this is what I found, I than show them the rule and even if they read it, they won't admit to being wrong. I understand you are human, and make mistakes, just like me, but to think that as a ref you are the be all end all to knowledge of rules is ignorant. Just like thinking I, as a coach am the same. I am not. I try to keep up as well with the rules so as not to make an *** of myself to a ref. When I am chastised by a ref and go home and reseach it, I will, next time I see him tell him he was right and I learned something. Yet in my experience, I have never had a ref do that to me.

I think the thing that is missing from your logic is that the ref is not directly responsible to you for the performance of his/her job. It is no more his/her job to coach your team, teach you how to coach, or educate you on the rules (which knowing the rules IMO should be a significant part of coaching and not something that refs should be expected to do during or even after the game, it should be a prerequisite) than it is yours to correct the referee on his interpretation of the rules or their application to the given situation.
This isn't to say that we are above explaining our calls on the court, but that explaination shouldn't have to include "a travel by rule occurs when..."; or that we are above listening to your side, but that should not include waiving a rule book at us at any point before, during or after a game.
I typically hand 3 business cards to game management when I arrive and ask them to give one to each coach and keep one for the AD to use should they have any questions or need to contact me, but I'm not going to play 20 questions or try to argue with coaches before, during or after games.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Just as funny end to this rambling, I once had a ref I coached with who was as I called him a vengence ref. If you pissed him off, which could on some days be just saying "aw com'n" he would than begin making calls to punish my team. Other teams also, I wasn't the only one. I kid you not, he once called a T on me for nothing, He thought I said something, and T'd me up. At the time I wasn't even sure what happened and what foul was called, I asked him who is the foul on and what for?? He told me "you, you arrogant *******" and T'd me again and threw me out of the game. Which I didn't leave, but that is another story. He gained enough complaints that he was banned from reffing anymore....thank GOD!! but I thought you guys might find that funny.

Finally, is it possible that he was giving you a T for waiving your rulebook or doing something else to undermine his authority? I'm not saying this guy was the golden boy of officiating, but I know many referees that aren't going to allow for anything that undermines their authority to perform their duty. I'm just saying that it is possible for non-verbal issues resulting in a T.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by coachJoeGibbs

If a player pointed out a rule, that I was wrong on and he/she used a rule book to show me I would be open to see it and admit, if I was wrong to my lack of knowledge on my part. I think it is arrogance, which some, not all refs have, to think that every call they make, at that level is true and by the book. I've had at times one ref tell the other ref " dude, you know he's right, you got the call wrong." and still they refuse to admit they were wrong.

How many times to do you hold conferences with the parents of your players? And many times do you tell them you were wrong for running a certain play or using a certain rotation?

Originally Posted by asstJoeBugel

The other issue I have is what we should expect from refs at that level. Having players adjust who are 11-13 especially girls is asking way too much. I laughed when you stated the sactioned mugging, which is kinda my point. Obvisously you can't call every little thing, and that is not what I am asking for.
I am asking that since those players at that level aren't at a maturity of talent yet, need to be cut some slack on certain aspects of the game. Like traveling, picking up a pivit foot slightly to get a pass off, or a minor double dribble. Like I said if you called all of those strickly, the game would last 3 hours.

Who do you think is working MS games? A lot of times it's new officials who are just starting out. I'm asking that since they are new that you cut them some slack on certain aspects of the game. BTW, picking up your pivot foot to get off a pass is not a violation. And what is a minor double dribble?

Originally Posted by 66JoeJacoby

Just as funny end to this rambling, I once had a ref I coached with who was as I called him a vengence ref. If you pissed him off, which could on some days be just saying "aw com'n" he would than begin making calls to punish my team. Other teams also, I wasn't the only one. I kid you not, he once called a T on me for nothing, He thought I said something, and T'd me up. At the time I wasn't even sure what happened and what foul was called, I asked him who is the foul on and what for?? He told me "you, you arrogant *******" and T'd me again and threw me out of the game. Which I didn't leave, but that is another story. He gained enough complaints that he was banned from reffing anymore....thank GOD!! but I thought you guys might find that funny.

What's that gotta do with us? I ref games in which I have good friends playing and they do the most whining. When I played I was an a$$-hole to a couple of my best friends in their early years of officiating and now both are D1 officials. All that has nothing to do with coming into this forum and learning.

[Junker]

Just a couple of points I don't think have been touched upon. First off, I also applaud you for learning the rules by talking to officials. More coaches should do that. In your post you make a comment about a us knowing more becuase we take a written test. Well yes, in preparing for the test we do learn the rules better than most coaches. In addiditon, almost everyone here attends camps, talks to evaluators, or is an evaluator so we work hard to learn how to apply those rules.

Next off, officials are a tight nit group. We will almost always side with an official over a coach. In your OP, it sounds like there might have been a foul that should have been called. It wasn't for some reason. The official gave you a reason why it wasn't called and that's the way it happened to the calling official.

Lastly, this is middle school basketball. As others have said, you probably aren't getting the cream of the crop as far as officals. This is true. Another thing I hope you can understand is that there is nothing more difficult to do fairly than junior high basketball. The players don't understand the game, they don't have the basketball skills, and they don't have great overall athletic skills. You might have a couple of players that play a lot and can be officiated easily, but there will also be a few on the floor that haven't touched a basketball outside of playing at recess. Let me assure as an official that used to work that level, it is by far the most difficult job in officiating.

Thanks for the questions and I hope you will continue to pick our minds and take our judgement and rules knowledge to help you grow as a coach.