traveling or pushing??

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Congrats. Most of us sincerely wish more coaches would take this approach. I hope you find this forum a valuable resource, and don't be afraid to share a coach's perspective on things.
The severity of the contact has nothing to do with whether the contact is incidental or not. From 4-27: "ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe."

With that as background we can usefully discuss whether the contact was incidental or not. IMO, as you have described it, this scenario is not incidental contact. But, as I mentioned earlier, that determination has nothing to do with whether your girl got knocked on her can.
Yep. True story. That's where beginning refs go to learn their skills. The real irony is that these games are often so bad and so quirky that they really require a more seasoned official to get them right. But hey, we all have to start somewhere (including players and coaches)I can't imagine any scenario where this is a good approach, Coach. How would you react if one of your players pulled out a coaching book during a game and told you that you were running your press wrong? Would you be inclined to say, "Thanks, Billy. I didn't realize I was messing that one up."? Heck no. During the game you've got a role to play and it involves you being the one in charge of your team, not vice versa. You don't want to lose your credibility or authority over your players like that. And you don't really have time to stop and rethink parts of your game right then. You may adjust later based on receiving new information, but in the moment you're going to do what you've been doing. Same story with officials. BTW, some officials would consider that a very serious attempt to show them up.

Yep. It's all part of learning to officiate. It ain't always pretty. The up side is that eventually some of them will get it and become better officials. Of course, then they'll move on to higher level games.

While I agree with you in principle, the details are notoriously difficult to agree on. Your idea of let them play may be my idea of sanctioned mugging. Or vice versa. So the reality is that you and your team need to learn to adjust to how the officials are calling the game. I feel your pain about intra-game consistency, but what else can you do?

This one gets my nomination for post of the week!!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

This one gets my nomination for post of the week!!

My mother will be soooo proud!

[81artmonk]

While I agree with much of what you guys have said, I must take issue with some of it. The point made that showing the ref rules wasn't a good idea by using the example of my own team player pointing out something to me, isn't a valid example. First, I am older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old player.
If a player pointed out a rule, that I was wrong on and he/she used a rule book to show me I would be open to see it and admit, if I was wrong to my lack of knowledge on my part. I think it is arrogance, which some, not all refs have, to think that every call they make, at that level is true and by the book. I've had at times one ref tell the other ref " dude, you know he's right, you got the call wrong." and still they refuse to admit they were wrong.
The other issue I have is what we should expect from refs at that level. Having players adjust who are 11-13 especially girls is asking way too much. I laughed when you stated the sactioned mugging, which is kinda my point. Obvisously you can't call every little thing, and that is not what I am asking for.
I am asking that since those players at that level aren't at a maturity of talent yet, need to be cut some slack on certain aspects of the game. Like traveling, picking up a pivit foot slightly to get a pass off, or a minor double dribble. Like I said if you called all of those strickly, the game would last 3 hours.
My final point is this. It's not that I go out and say "hey look, you were wrong" to the ref and fly the rule book in his face. I will usually go to them after the game and ask them what was their reasoning for certain calls, and why they called it that way. If I get an answer that contradicts the rules or isn't a call that is flat out wrong based on the rules, the next time I see them I use the rule book as a guide. Remeber what you said last week, well I researched it and this is what I found, I than show them the rule and even if they read it, they won't admit to being wrong. I understand you are human, and make mistakes, just like me, but to think that as a ref you are the be all end all to knowledge of rules is ignorant. Just like thinking I, as a coach am the same. I am not. I try to keep up as well with the rules so as not to make an *** of myself to a ref. When I am chastised by a ref and go home and reseach it, I will, next time I see him tell him he was right and I learned something. Yet in my experience, I have never had a ref do that to me.
Just as funny end to this rambling, I once had a ref I coached with who was as I called him a vengence ref. If you pissed him off, which could on some days be just saying "aw com'n" he would than begin making calls to punish my team. Other teams also, I wasn't the only one. I kid you not, he once called a T on me for nothing, He thought I said something, and T'd me up. At the time I wasn't even sure what happened and what foul was called, I asked him who is the foul on and what for?? He told me "you, you arrogant *******" and T'd me again and threw me out of the game. Which I didn't leave, but that is another story. He gained enough complaints that he was banned from reffing anymore....thank GOD!! but I thought you guys might find that funny.

[JRutledge]

I find it arrogant that a middle school coach actually thinks he knows more than people that likely had to pass a written test and probably attended training classes to discuss everything from rules to mechanic. I guess we all notice different stuff in they way people say things.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

While I agree with much of what you guys have said, I must take issue with some of it. The point made that showing the ref rules wasn't a good idea by using the example of my own team player pointing out something to me, isn't a valid example. First, I am older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old player.
If a player pointed out a rule, that I was wrong on and he/she used a rule book to show me I would be open to see it and admit, if I was wrong to my lack of knowledge on my part. I think it is arrogance, which some, not all refs have, to think that every call they make, at that level is true and by the book. I've had at times one ref tell the other ref " dude, you know he's right, you got the call wrong." and still they refuse to admit they were wrong.
The other issue I have is what we should expect from refs at that level. Having players adjust who are 11-13 especially girls is asking way too much. I laughed when you stated the sactioned mugging, which is kinda my point. Obvisously you can't call every little thing, and that is not what I am asking for.
I am asking that since those players at that level aren't at a maturity of talent yet, need to be cut some slack on certain aspects of the game. Like traveling, picking up a pivit foot slightly to get a pass off, or a minor double dribble. Like I said if you called all of those strickly, the game would last 3 hours.
My final point is this. It's not that I go out and say "hey look, you were wrong" to the ref and fly the rule book in his face. I will usually go to them after the game and ask them what was their reasoning for certain calls, and why they called it that way. If I get an answer that contradicts the rules or isn't a call that is flat out wrong based on the rules, the next time I see them I use the rule book as a guide. Remeber what you said last week, well I researched it and this is what I found, I than show them the rule and even if they read it, they won't admit to being wrong. I understand you are human, and make mistakes, just like me, but to think that as a ref you are the be all end all to knowledge of rules is ignorant. Just like thinking I, as a coach am the same. I am not. I try to keep up as well with the rules so as not to make an *** of myself to a ref. When I am chastised by a ref and go home and reseach it, I will, next time I see him tell him he was right and I learned something. Yet in my experience, I have never had a ref do that to me.
Just as funny end to this rambling, I once had a ref I coached with who was as I called him a vengence ref. If you pissed him off, which could on some days be just saying "aw com'n" he would than begin making calls to punish my team. Other teams also, I wasn't the only one. I kid you not, he once called a T on me for nothing, He thought I said something, and T'd me up. At the time I wasn't even sure what happened and what foul was called, I asked him who is the foul on and what for?? He told me "you, you arrogant *******" and T'd me again and threw me out of the game. Which I didn't leave, but that is another story. He gained enough complaints that he was banned from reffing anymore....thank GOD!! but I thought you guys might find that funny.

Methinks that you should concentrate more on coaching and less on officiating. You can't do both. And you're trying to.

Just an observation after reading your posts.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

While I agree with much of what you guys have said, I must take issue with some of it. The point made that showing the ref rules wasn't a good idea by using the example of my own team player pointing out something to me, isn't a valid example. First, I am older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old player.
If a player pointed out a rule, that I was wrong on and he/she used a rule book to show me I would be open to see it and admit, if I was wrong to my lack of knowledge on my part. I think it is arrogance, which some, not all refs have, to think that every call they make, at that level is true and by the book. I've had at times one ref tell the other ref " dude, you know he's right, you got the call wrong." and still they refuse to admit they were wrong.
The other issue I have is what we should expect from refs at that level. Having players adjust who are 11-13 especially girls is asking way too much. I laughed when you stated the sactioned mugging, which is kinda my point. Obvisously you can't call every little thing, and that is not what I am asking for.
I am asking that since those players at that level aren't at a maturity of talent yet, need to be cut some slack on certain aspects of the game. Like traveling, picking up a pivit foot slightly to get a pass off, or a minor double dribble. Like I said if you called all of those strickly, the game would last 3 hours.
My final point is this. It's not that I go out and say "hey look, you were wrong" to the ref and fly the rule book in his face. I will usually go to them after the game and ask them what was their reasoning for certain calls, and why they called it that way. If I get an answer that contradicts the rules or isn't a call that is flat out wrong based on the rules, the next time I see them I use the rule book as a guide. Remeber what you said last week, well I researched it and this is what I found, I than show them the rule and even if they read it, they won't admit to being wrong. I understand you are human, and make mistakes, just like me, but to think that as a ref you are the be all end all to knowledge of rules is ignorant. Just like thinking I, as a coach am the same. I am not. I try to keep up as well with the rules so as not to make an *** of myself to a ref. When I am chastised by a ref and go home and reseach it, I will, next time I see him tell him he was right and I learned something. Yet in my experience, I have never had a ref do that to me.
Just as funny end to this rambling, I once had a ref I coached with who was as I called him a vengence ref. If you pissed him off, which could on some days be just saying "aw com'n" he would than begin making calls to punish my team. Other teams also, I wasn't the only one. I kid you not, he once called a T on me for nothing, He thought I said something, and T'd me up. At the time I wasn't even sure what happened and what foul was called, I asked him who is the foul on and what for?? He told me "you, you arrogant *******" and T'd me again and threw me out of the game. Which I didn't leave, but that is another story. He gained enough complaints that he was banned from reffing anymore....thank GOD!! but I thought you guys might find that funny.

My example is perfectly valid. It involves an authority figure being challenged by one over whom he has authority, on the very subject he is supposed to be authoratative about. And despite your protests about how you're different, your own words betray you as a card-carrying member of the same club: "First, I am older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old player."

Fact is, I've got a 12 yo that will whip your tail on knowledge of any subject that she's passionately interested in; and there are quite a few of them. Age is no guarantee of superior knowledge, and neither is a position of authority. Yet we all ignorantly plod along assuming we know more than those around us who are much younger or over whom we preside. And yes, none of us likes to be proven wrong. No big surprise there. What you're grousing about is not so much arrogant referees as it is human nature, and every one of us here can tell you many similar stories about coaches.

As for well called MS games, I don't know what else to tell you except Good Luck. Most places the only qualfication to be a MS referee is a willingness to do the job and the ability to get off work in time for the games. It's difficult work. Generally the games aren't "games." A "game" has a flow to it. You can call a "game" consistently because you can identify plays that are similar to previous plays and call them the same. MS games are more like a thousand individual and completely random moments strung together with bits of bad ball handling. It's a great place to learn to make calls. But it's a hopeless place to learn to call a consistent "game."

So that's what you get, guys who are learning to make calls. And how does one learn to make calls? By screwing calls up. Repeatedly. Until they learn to get them right. And when an official finally learns to get calls right, he usually moves on to bigger games.

OTOH, coaches can be pretty random too. You say you don't want us to call every little foul or violation. We can agree on that. The trouble then is agreeing on which ones matter. I guarantee you, 100% money back and all that, that over the course of an entire game you will believe that a violation or foul your opponent commits needs to be called way more often than a similar violation or foul commited by one of your own players. And if the game is close I will equally guarantee that you want every single violation called on your opponent, and every bit of contact your opponent creates to be called a foul. At that point, for you, it's not at all about maturity and skill level, it's about trying to use us to gain a competitive advantage.

Bottom line: players, coaches, and officials participate in MS games for the experience. Generally none of them are very good. Those that get better move on to higher levels. Those that don't quit or stay at the MS level.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

While I agree with much of what you guys have said, I must take issue with some of it. The point made that showing the ref rules wasn't a good idea by using the example of my own team player pointing out something to me, isn't a valid example. First, I am older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old player.
If a player pointed out a rule, that I was wrong on and he/she used a rule book to show me I would be open to see it and admit, if I was wrong to my lack of knowledge on my part.

While you may be older and more knowledgable than a 13 year old, it is also likely true that a referee, even of limited experience, that has at the very least passed a written test and likely had additional training is more knowledgable concerning officiating a basketball game.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I think it is arrogance, which some, not all refs have, to think that every call they make, at that level is true and by the book. I've had at times one ref tell the other ref " dude, you know he's right, you got the call wrong." and still they refuse to admit they were wrong.

To a certain extent I think this is a little bit of the attitude that a referee must have. If s/he is constantly questioning every call s/he makes then is going to be limited by him/her questioning the call. Furthermore, I doubt that you've ever had one official question another within earshot of you or any other coach/player/fan/etc. When those types of conversations do occur they take place away from everybody else (or at least they should). Even if this has happened once, I don't see it happening repeatedly as you suggest by using the word "times" (times being plural and therefore meaning more once).

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I am asking that since those players at that level aren't at a maturity of talent yet, need to be cut some slack on certain aspects of the game. Like traveling, picking up a pivit foot slightly to get a pass off, or a minor double dribble. Like I said if you called all of those strickly, the game would last 3 hours.

For somebody that has been using the rulebook to make his point so much, I would think that you would expect all officials not to call anything on picking up a pivot foot to get a pass off. This is specifically one reason that the pivot foot can be picked up. The only thing that can't be done once the pivot foot is picked up is putting it back down or starting a dribble. Additionally this is the place the players should be learning. If we allow them to travel or commit "minor double dribbles" then they will continue doing so into their HS level games and not think anything of it until they can't make the team and the coach tells them that its because they can't dribble well enough. Instead of complaining about refs making such calls, teach your players not to make such mistakes. Just because they are middle schoolers and at an awkward developmental stage, that doesn't make them incapable of learning to do better.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

My final point is this. It's not that I go out and say "hey look, you were wrong" to the ref and fly the rule book in his face. I will usually go to them after the game and ask them what was their reasoning for certain calls, and why they called it that way. If I get an answer that contradicts the rules or isn't a call that is flat out wrong based on the rules, the next time I see them I use the rule book as a guide. Remeber what you said last week, well I researched it and this is what I found, I than show them the rule and even if they read it, they won't admit to being wrong. I understand you are human, and make mistakes, just like me, but to think that as a ref you are the be all end all to knowledge of rules is ignorant. Just like thinking I, as a coach am the same. I am not. I try to keep up as well with the rules so as not to make an *** of myself to a ref. When I am chastised by a ref and go home and reseach it, I will, next time I see him tell him he was right and I learned something. Yet in my experience, I have never had a ref do that to me.

I think the thing that is missing from your logic is that the ref is not directly responsible to you for the performance of his/her job. It is no more his/her job to coach your team, teach you how to coach, or educate you on the rules (which knowing the rules IMO should be a significant part of coaching and not something that refs should be expected to do during or even after the game, it should be a prerequisite) than it is yours to correct the referee on his interpretation of the rules or their application to the given situation.
This isn't to say that we are above explaining our calls on the court, but that explaination shouldn't have to include "a travel by rule occurs when..."; or that we are above listening to your side, but that should not include waiving a rule book at us at any point before, during or after a game.
I typically hand 3 business cards to game management when I arrive and ask them to give one to each coach and keep one for the AD to use should they have any questions or need to contact me, but I'm not going to play 20 questions or try to argue with coaches before, during or after games.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Just as funny end to this rambling, I once had a ref I coached with who was as I called him a vengence ref. If you pissed him off, which could on some days be just saying "aw com'n" he would than begin making calls to punish my team. Other teams also, I wasn't the only one. I kid you not, he once called a T on me for nothing, He thought I said something, and T'd me up. At the time I wasn't even sure what happened and what foul was called, I asked him who is the foul on and what for?? He told me "you, you arrogant *******" and T'd me again and threw me out of the game. Which I didn't leave, but that is another story. He gained enough complaints that he was banned from reffing anymore....thank GOD!! but I thought you guys might find that funny.

Finally, is it possible that he was giving you a T for waiving your rulebook or doing something else to undermine his authority? I'm not saying this guy was the golden boy of officiating, but I know many referees that aren't going to allow for anything that undermines their authority to perform their duty. I'm just saying that it is possible for non-verbal issues resulting in a T.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by coachJoeGibbs

If a player pointed out a rule, that I was wrong on and he/she used a rule book to show me I would be open to see it and admit, if I was wrong to my lack of knowledge on my part. I think it is arrogance, which some, not all refs have, to think that every call they make, at that level is true and by the book. I've had at times one ref tell the other ref " dude, you know he's right, you got the call wrong." and still they refuse to admit they were wrong.

How many times to do you hold conferences with the parents of your players? And many times do you tell them you were wrong for running a certain play or using a certain rotation?

Originally Posted by asstJoeBugel

The other issue I have is what we should expect from refs at that level. Having players adjust who are 11-13 especially girls is asking way too much. I laughed when you stated the sactioned mugging, which is kinda my point. Obvisously you can't call every little thing, and that is not what I am asking for.
I am asking that since those players at that level aren't at a maturity of talent yet, need to be cut some slack on certain aspects of the game. Like traveling, picking up a pivit foot slightly to get a pass off, or a minor double dribble. Like I said if you called all of those strickly, the game would last 3 hours.

Who do you think is working MS games? A lot of times it's new officials who are just starting out. I'm asking that since they are new that you cut them some slack on certain aspects of the game. BTW, picking up your pivot foot to get off a pass is not a violation. And what is a minor double dribble?

Originally Posted by 66JoeJacoby

Just as funny end to this rambling, I once had a ref I coached with who was as I called him a vengence ref. If you pissed him off, which could on some days be just saying "aw com'n" he would than begin making calls to punish my team. Other teams also, I wasn't the only one. I kid you not, he once called a T on me for nothing, He thought I said something, and T'd me up. At the time I wasn't even sure what happened and what foul was called, I asked him who is the foul on and what for?? He told me "you, you arrogant *******" and T'd me again and threw me out of the game. Which I didn't leave, but that is another story. He gained enough complaints that he was banned from reffing anymore....thank GOD!! but I thought you guys might find that funny.

What's that gotta do with us? I ref games in which I have good friends playing and they do the most whining. When I played I was an a$$-hole to a couple of my best friends in their early years of officiating and now both are D1 officials. All that has nothing to do with coming into this forum and learning.

[81artmonk]

First I think you are all missing my point. Second, I haven't once questioned your personal abilitly to ref, yet by your responses, you have, some in polite, others in direct ways, put me down simpley for being a coach and/or ignorant of the rules, which I find kinda arrogant and condesending.
From the lastest barrage of responses, I find it hard to believe that you would think a ref wouldn't know the rules at the MS level. Your examples of a 13 yr old knowing more than a coach, I concede that that may be true, but in a rare situation. Why say that anyway? Do you think that because I am a coach, or do you think that some 13yr olds know more than you refs too??
Using parents calling me on the carpet for plays is completely different than reffing. reffing has a set standard rules. Coaching does not. One coach may run this while another doesn't. Although we are bound by human error, to link the two is delinquent.
My final point in all of this is, I was being honest. I never once condemed you personally. I never pointed a finger. I simply stated my opinion and what I got back was some refs who apparently feel slighted in some way. How, I don't know. Did I ever say that you were losers who didn't know what you were doing?? No I simply talked about the refs I experience...not you. To be honest again, I get the impression that you who responded to my posts think coaches are basically the bottom feeders of knowledge and talent. I heard someone make the comment,
"I find it arrogant that a middle school coach actually thinks he knows more than people that likely had to pass a written test and probably attended training classes to discuss everything from rules to mechanic."
So taking a written test means you now more?? Just asking. I think that is arrogant. For the record, I never said that I know more. NEVER! But to think that a ref is above the coach in knowledge is just as arrogant as thinking a 13 yr old is above a coach in knowledge. Listen, the bottom line is, I never called you out personally. I never bad mouthed you on this board. I never said that refs don't know anything. I simply shared my experiences and got tarred and feathered for it. I understand your plight. I would hate to be yelled at every game and think I'm a jerk by parents and coaches alike. I guess i will limit my posts to questions now, knowing that if I share my opinion as a coach I will be, belittled, put down, and made to feel stupid under the mighty knowledge and authority that is a ref! sorry if I hurt anyones feeling I will shut up in the future and only ask questions. thank you for answering my question in the beggining I appreciate your input and knowledge.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

First I think you are all missing my point. Second, I haven't once questioned your personal abilitly to ref, yet by your responses, you have, some in polite, others in direct ways, put me down simpley for being a coach and/or ignorant of the rules, which I find kinda arrogant and condesending.
From the lastest barrage of responses, I find it hard to believe that you would think a ref wouldn't know the rules at the MS level. Your examples of a 13 yr old knowing more than a coach, I concede that that may be true, but in a rare situation. Why say that anyway? Do you think that because I am a coach, or do you think that some 13yr olds know more than you refs too??
Using parents calling me on the carpet for plays is completely different than reffing. reffing has a set standard rules. Coaching does not. One coach may run this while another doesn't. Although we are bound by human error, to link the two is delinquent.
My final point in all of this is, I was being honest. I never once condemed you personally. I never pointed a finger. I simply stated my opinion and what I got back was some refs who apparently feel slighted in some way. How, I don't know. Did I ever say that you were losers who didn't know what you were doing?? No I simply talked about the refs I experience...not you. To be honest again, I get the impression that you who responded to my posts think coaches are basically the bottom feeders of knowledge and talent. I heard someone make the comment,
"I find it arrogant that a middle school coach actually thinks he knows more than people that likely had to pass a written test and probably attended training classes to discuss everything from rules to mechanic."
So taking a written test means you now more?? Just asking. I think that is arrogant. For the record, I never said that I know more. NEVER! But to think that a ref is above the coach in knowledge is just as arrogant as thinking a 13 yr old is above a coach in knowledge. Listen, the bottom line is, I never called you out personally. I never bad mouthed you on this board. I never said that refs don't know anything. I simply shared my experiences and got tarred and feathered for it. I understand your plight. I would hate to be yelled at every game and think I'm a jerk by parents and coaches alike. I guess i will limit my posts to questions now, knowing that if I share my opinion as a coach I will be, belittled, put down, and made to feel stupid under the mighty knowledge and authority that is a ref! sorry if I hurt anyones feeling I will shut up in the future and only ask questions. thank you for answering my question in the beggining I appreciate your input and knowledge.

Coach, whatinthehell is your problem?

You asked for opinions. You got 'em. If you don't like those opinions, well, that's just too bad. What did you expect anyway? That's how this forum works.

You got opinions from official's viewpoints. Deal with it. What would you do if you were out on the court with a whistle in your mouth and you had 2 sets of coaches and 5000 fans second-guessing everything that you did? Fair's fair.

[Dan_ref]

Spock...there are too. Many. Words. Can't...think must....escape

[Junker]

Just a couple of points I don't think have been touched upon. First off, I also applaud you for learning the rules by talking to officials. More coaches should do that. In your post you make a comment about a us knowing more becuase we take a written test. Well yes, in preparing for the test we do learn the rules better than most coaches. In addiditon, almost everyone here attends camps, talks to evaluators, or is an evaluator so we work hard to learn how to apply those rules.

Next off, officials are a tight nit group. We will almost always side with an official over a coach. In your OP, it sounds like there might have been a foul that should have been called. It wasn't for some reason. The official gave you a reason why it wasn't called and that's the way it happened to the calling official.

Lastly, this is middle school basketball. As others have said, you probably aren't getting the cream of the crop as far as officals. This is true. Another thing I hope you can understand is that there is nothing more difficult to do fairly than junior high basketball. The players don't understand the game, they don't have the basketball skills, and they don't have great overall athletic skills. You might have a couple of players that play a lot and can be officiated easily, but there will also be a few on the floor that haven't touched a basketball outside of playing at recess. Let me assure as an official that used to work that level, it is by far the most difficult job in officiating.

Thanks for the questions and I hope you will continue to pick our minds and take our judgement and rules knowledge to help you grow as a coach.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

From the lastest barrage of responses, I find it hard to believe that you would think a ref wouldn't know the rules at the MS level.
Using parents calling me on the carpet for plays is completely different than reffing. reffing has a set standard rules. Coaching does not. One coach may run this while another doesn't. Although we are bound by human error, to link the two is delinquent.

Mr. RedskinNation, officials are assigned games by certain people, whether it be a supervisor, assignor, commissioner, or the school's Athletic Director. If you believe an official is improperly applying rules you need to relay that information to the proper authority. The refs do not work directly for you, the coach. It is not your business to wave a rulebook in front of an official and tell him he is wrong. Also, a few of your scenarios involved judgement of an official, not rules application.

Now answer me this, where are new officials supposed to get their training and learn the ropes? Where I live, Middle School games serve a large portion of that function. So yes, you are going to have officials who don't have a command of the rulebook.

Your problem in this forum is that you are being disingenuous. You ask our input for certain situations then argue when you don't like our answers. I think you're really here so you can go back to one of your offending officials and say "See, I told you so."

You're like one of those guests who come on Dr. Phil, ask for help and advice, then get mad when they don't hear what they want to hear, then end up arguing with Dr. Phil.

If you are just looking for confirmation that MS officials aren't the best officials in the world, I'm sure there are plenty of coaching forums where you can vent and get all the affirmation you need in return.

And lastly, quit whining with all this refs must think "coaches are basically the bottom feeders" garbage. We officials disagree with each other all the time and we have all kinds of "popcorn" worthy spectacles within the confines of this forum, the locker room after a game, or the nearest Bar & Grill. You aren't getting any kind of special mistreatment that we don't already give to each other.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You're like one of those guests who come on Dr. Phil, ask for help and advice, then get mad when they don't hear what they want to hear, then end up arguing with Dr. Phil.

Hey isn't admitting that you watch Dr Phil a guy card violation ??????

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

First I think you are all missing my point. Second, I haven't once questioned your personal abilitly to ref, yet by your responses, you have, some in polite, others in direct ways, put me down simpley for being a coach and/or ignorant of the rules, which I find kinda arrogant and condesending.

I think you really need to learn reading comprehension.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

From the lastest barrage of responses, I find it hard to believe that you would think a ref wouldn't know the rules at the MS level. Your examples of a 13 yr old knowing more than a coach, I concede that that may be true, but in a rare situation. Why say that anyway? Do you think that because I am a coach, or do you think that some 13yr olds know more than you refs too??

Once again I think you need to learn to understand what is written. If officials are starting at the MS level, do you think they know everything there is to know about officiating? That probably means they do not have the best grasp of the rules. Many rules and judgment are not grasped until several years of working games. Same goes for players and coaches when it comes to playing the game. Michael Jordan did not become a great player at the JH level.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

Using parents calling me on the carpet for plays is completely different than reffing. reffing has a set standard rules. Coaching does not. One coach may run this while another doesn't. Although we are bound by human error, to link the two is delinquent.

I disagree with your answer, but that just shows you do not want to take responsibility for your actions.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

My final point in all of this is, I was being honest. I never once condemed you personally. I never pointed a finger. I simply stated my opinion and what I got back was some refs who apparently feel slighted in some way. How, I don't know. Did I ever say that you were losers who didn't know what you were doing?? No I simply talked about the refs I experience...not you. To be honest again, I get the impression that you who responded to my posts think coaches are basically the bottom feeders of knowledge and talent. I heard someone make the comment,"I find it arrogant that a middle school coach actually thinks he knows more than people that likely had to pass a written test and probably attended training classes to discuss everything from rules to mechanic."

Well I stated my opinion. If you do not like the opinion that you were given, well you have a couple of choices. You can either accept those opinions as being different than yours, or you can whine that people do not agree with you. I guess you do have another choice, you can leave and you will never have to worry about what anyone says.

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

So taking a written test means you now more?? Just asking. I think that is arrogant. For the record, I never said that I know more. NEVER! But to think that a ref is above the coach in knowledge is just as arrogant as thinking a 13 yr old is above a coach in knowledge. Listen, the bottom line is, I never called you out personally. I never bad mouthed you on this board. I never said that refs don't know anything. I simply shared my experiences and got tarred and feathered for it. I understand your plight. I would hate to be yelled at every game and think I'm a jerk by parents and coaches alike. I guess i will limit my posts to questions now, knowing that if I share my opinion as a coach I will be, belittled, put down, and made to feel stupid under the mighty knowledge and authority that is a ref! sorry if I hurt anyones feeling I will shut up in the future and only ask questions. thank you for answering my question in the beggining I appreciate your input and knowledge.

I can speak for myself only. I never said they knew more, I said they have been through more training than you have. Even if all an official did was have to take a test that is more rules knowledge than the vast majority of coaches go through in a career. Then depending on the area, that official had to take classes and other requirements before even stepping onto the court. Now we are assuming that we are talking about brand new refs. It is very likely that you got veterans that have likely worked more games in a season than you will see in a few years. I do not know I also do not ultimately care. But you were given a lot of answers and you choose not to accept them. None of us where there and as far as I am concerned, you are a middle school coach. I seriously doubt that anyone is putting full page articles about your team on a game by game basis. Put the games in perspective. We have already told you why you do not get the top officials and you keep insisting that we cannot accept what happen in games we did not witness. Dude, get a grip and teach your players better. I cannot imagine that there are many teams at that level that are so good that night in and night out you are struggling to compete with equally talented teams and the officials are the reason you are losing.

Peace