How Long do you hold your stop sign?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jway44

This was High School situation, so 2 shots and the ball to the other team. Threrefore you have taken the ball from the offending team, given the other team 2 shots and the ball.

You mentioned he's a college official so I assumed he does this for his ncaa games. Or maybe you think his status as a college official gives him more credibility?

In any event it's very bad advice IMO. You start doing this stuff and next thing you'll be making calls/no-calls based on how much you like the coach.

When it's time to T the coach just go ahead and T him. Throw all that other clever BS out the window.

[Jway44]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

You mentioned he's a college official so I assumed he does this for his ncaa games. Or maybe you think his status as a college official gives him more credibility?

In any event it's very bad advice IMO. You start doing this stuff and next thing you'll be making calls/no-calls based on how much you like the coach.

When it's time to T the coach just go ahead and T him. Throw all that other clever BS out the window.

I only mentioned that he is a college official because he is very respected in our association. He has worked numerous NCAA tournament games, and a couple of Final Fours. The advice was based on High School situation. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking a coach, it is just a matter of holding the whistle for a few extra seconds.

I am the last person to go passing out technical fouls, so if I administer one, it is well warranted. So if a coach is behaving that badly, holiding the whistle for another second or two until his team has possesion is just causing him to "loose" as much as he can for his actions. Remember we are talking about a situation where he is going to get T'd up. Not a situation where you are looking for a problem.

We are on the floor for the players, not the coaches. I rarely pay them any attention at all unless there is a dead ball situation and they are asking a question or requesting a time out. Therefore if he is behaving bad enough for me to give him a T, another second or two will not hurt a bit.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jway44

I only mentioned that he is a college official because he is very respected in our association. He has worked numerous NCAA tournament games, and a couple of Final Fours. The advice was based on High School situation. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking a coach, it is just a matter of holding the whistle for a few extra seconds.

I am the last person to go passing out technical fouls, so if I administer one, it is well warranted. So if a coach is behaving that badly, holiding the whistle for another second or two until his team has possesion is just causing him to "loose" as much as he can for his actions. Remember we are talking about a situation where he is going to get T'd up. Not a situation where you are looking for a problem.

We are on the floor for the players, not the coaches. I rarely pay them any attention at all unless there is a dead ball situation and they are asking a question or requesting a time out. Therefore if he is behaving bad enough for me to give him a T, another second or two will not hurt a bit.

OK, so what you're really saying is when a coach gets on your azz IF the other team has the ball and IF you think they are about to turn it over then hold the T. Otherwise T right away. Right?

Interesting policy. What happens if the coach is reaming you a new one while you're waiting for the other team to turn it over but they don't? Or what if the OTHER coach calls a time out?? Then what? You wait for the TO to end and start all over? How long do you wait until you finally give up and T him up when he doesn't have the ball?

To me life is complicated enough already. Coach earns his T, he gets his T right then & there.

Frankly, I don't care if your friend worked EVERY D1 final for the last 20 years. What you heard him say is bad advice. That's all.

[Chess Ref]

In our area STOP signs are encouraged and expected to be used. Having said that the philosophy I have embraced is right along the lines of Jurassic Ref.
Several nights ago coach comes screaming off the bench yelling at me. She was on the court a good 5 feet, going Linda Blair on me. NO stop sign just a tweet from me.
LAst night coach crying about everything. I use a the step process
1. I hear you coach
2. I'm looking for it
3. STOP sign and "that's enough coach"
4. Would have been a T but he stopped and we had a nice little 2nd half.
I have no problem when the coach goes Linda Blair-Tweet- What I am working on is dealing with the persistent whining/crying/reffing deal.....

[Jway44]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

OK, so what you're really saying is when a coach gets on your azz IF the other team has the ball and IF you think they are about to turn it over then hold the T. Otherwise T right away. Right?

I think that you are reading too much into the statement. You should know by the individual situation if this is possible. It is like anything else in this game. It will not be definate each and every time, but it is just something to think about. Like I said before, it is just a matter of holding the whistle for a COUPLE of seconds longer if there is a chance that the other team may score. If they are in a set offense, with no attacking of the basket happening, then give him the T. But don't take a scoring oppertunity away from the other team just because of a coach's behavior. You have obviously been able to tolorate him up to this point, a few more seconds will not hurt.

Everything we do in basketball is based on management of the game. Each game is different, therefore you learn to use your game management skills based on the contest that you are working that night. The next game could be totally different and require a different set of management skills. There are very few absolutes. The best officials are the ones that can adapt to situations on the floor as they arise.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jway44

Each game is different, therefore you learn to use your game management skills based on the contest that you are working that night. The next game could be totally different and require a different set of management skills. There are very few absolutes. The best officials are the ones that can adapt to situations on the floor as they arise.

Being vindicitive can hardly be called "game management" skills imo. And I can't believe that the "best officials" would even consider doing something so petty.

[Jway44]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Being vindicitive can hardly be called "game management" skills imo. And I can't believe that the "best officials" would even consider doing something so petty.

Where did being vindictive come from. You have really gone off of the deep end now.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jway44

Where did being vindictive come from. You have really gone off of the deep end now.

"...no matter how bad he is behaving, if you are going to T a coach, always wait until his team has the ball. It just adds a little more insult to the situation. I had never really thought about it, but that is a good idea."

Not vindictive?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jway44

I think that you are reading too much into the statement...

Could be.

Could also be that your original statement is overly simplistic and open to any interpretation. Too much analysis to go thru.

Here's a foolproof plan that I bet even your D1 friend uses:

Coach earns a T ---> coach gets his T.

No steps in the middle.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jway44

...Everything we do in basketball is based on management of the game...

NO IT IS NOT !

Interestingly enough, when a player commits a foul I blow my whistle because of the foul, not game management.

Too many officials want to jump right over learning judgement and other things associated with calling the game. Going right to game management is not the answer IMO. If I am over simplifying your statement, please explain.

[Jway44]

Originally Posted by tomegun

NO IT IS NOT !

Interestingly enough, when a player commits a foul I blow my whistle because of the foul, not game management.

Too many officials want to jump right over learning judgement and other things associated with calling the game. Going right to game management is not the answer IMO. If I am over simplifying your statement, please explain.

tomegun, I was not referring to calling common fouls or violations. Just to handling "situations" that will arise from game to game. Calling the foul, or violation is the one thing that should be constant. You are correct by stating that you blow your whistle because of the foul. I do think that you can teach people good mechanics, and give them all of the tools to learning good judgement(although some still don't use it) but game management is a skill that one is actually a little harder to aquire.

I think that this topic has gotten away from the way that I referee. I am not vindictive, and as I have said before, If I give a coach a T, then he has really gone over the line. Easpecially in a varsity game where "most" (not all) of the coaches are fairly knowledgeable about the game. I always figure that if they are complaining about something, then we need to listen first and then once our answer is not good enough for them, then you can give the T. Good communication with coaches is the key. They need to feel that you are willing to listen to them even if you know that what they are saying is either false, or just begging. It is often the "space" that officials put between themselves and the coach that can cause a problem. At the same time, we are there to referee the game and the players on the floor, and it is the coaches job to coach the players, not scream or beg to officials.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jway44

Everything we do in basketball is based on management of the game.

OK, if this isn't what you mean I will give you a second chance to take it back. I don't know can say everything and then not mean everything.

Now I'm starting to see why I don't have to use my .963 second - I worked on it at lunch - stop sign as often as others.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

When it's time to T the coach just go ahead and T him. Throw all that other clever BS out the window.

Agreed. Just penalize the act and forget about the analysis.

[Junker]

It has been my experience that pickinig the mind of D1 officials is a great place to learn, but you also have to consider that most of us are not D1 officials and cannot manage the games the same way. Since he has worked the final four and the tournament there is probably a level of credibility and respect from the coaches that we will probably not have with a HS coach or smaller college coach. Another thing to consider is that basketball at the college level, especially D1 is much more of a profession than high school. The coaches generally have a much better understanding of what the officials are trying to do on the floor and thus the game can be called a little differently.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Junker

It has been my experience that picking the mind of D1 officials is a great place to learn, but you also have to consider that most of us are not D1 officials and cannot manage the games the same way. Since he has worked the final four and the tournament there is probably a level of credibility and respect from the coaches that we will probably not have with a HS coach or smaller college coach. Another thing to consider is that basketball at the college level, especially D1 is much more of a profession than high school. The coaches generally have a much better understanding of what the officials are trying to do on the floor and thus the game can be called a little differently.

Jmo, but if you pulled something like that at the D1 level, you'd be pulled yourself shortly thereafter. I just can't see supervisors putting up with a "gonna get you back" philosophy at that level. You'd lose any credibility and respect that you had from the coaches.