How Long do you hold your stop sign?

[Chess Ref]

In our area STOP signs are encouraged and expected to be used. Having said that the philosophy I have embraced is right along the lines of Jurassic Ref.
Several nights ago coach comes screaming off the bench yelling at me. She was on the court a good 5 feet, going Linda Blair on me. NO stop sign just a tweet from me.
LAst night coach crying about everything. I use a the step process
1. I hear you coach
2. I'm looking for it
3. STOP sign and "that's enough coach"
4. Would have been a T but he stopped and we had a nice little 2nd half.
I have no problem when the coach goes Linda Blair-Tweet- What I am working on is dealing with the persistent whining/crying/reffing deal.....

[Jway44]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

OK, so what you're really saying is when a coach gets on your azz IF the other team has the ball and IF you think they are about to turn it over then hold the T. Otherwise T right away. Right?

I think that you are reading too much into the statement. You should know by the individual situation if this is possible. It is like anything else in this game. It will not be definate each and every time, but it is just something to think about. Like I said before, it is just a matter of holding the whistle for a COUPLE of seconds longer if there is a chance that the other team may score. If they are in a set offense, with no attacking of the basket happening, then give him the T. But don't take a scoring oppertunity away from the other team just because of a coach's behavior. You have obviously been able to tolorate him up to this point, a few more seconds will not hurt.

Everything we do in basketball is based on management of the game. Each game is different, therefore you learn to use your game management skills based on the contest that you are working that night. The next game could be totally different and require a different set of management skills. There are very few absolutes. The best officials are the ones that can adapt to situations on the floor as they arise.

[Junker]

It has been my experience that pickinig the mind of D1 officials is a great place to learn, but you also have to consider that most of us are not D1 officials and cannot manage the games the same way. Since he has worked the final four and the tournament there is probably a level of credibility and respect from the coaches that we will probably not have with a HS coach or smaller college coach. Another thing to consider is that basketball at the college level, especially D1 is much more of a profession than high school. The coaches generally have a much better understanding of what the officials are trying to do on the floor and thus the game can be called a little differently.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jway44

Each game is different, therefore you learn to use your game management skills based on the contest that you are working that night. The next game could be totally different and require a different set of management skills. There are very few absolutes. The best officials are the ones that can adapt to situations on the floor as they arise.

Being vindicitive can hardly be called "game management" skills imo. And I can't believe that the "best officials" would even consider doing something so petty.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jway44

I think that you are reading too much into the statement...

Could be.

Could also be that your original statement is overly simplistic and open to any interpretation. Too much analysis to go thru.

Here's a foolproof plan that I bet even your D1 friend uses:

Coach earns a T ---> coach gets his T.

No steps in the middle.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Junker

It has been my experience that picking the mind of D1 officials is a great place to learn, but you also have to consider that most of us are not D1 officials and cannot manage the games the same way. Since he has worked the final four and the tournament there is probably a level of credibility and respect from the coaches that we will probably not have with a HS coach or smaller college coach. Another thing to consider is that basketball at the college level, especially D1 is much more of a profession than high school. The coaches generally have a much better understanding of what the officials are trying to do on the floor and thus the game can be called a little differently.

Jmo, but if you pulled something like that at the D1 level, you'd be pulled yourself shortly thereafter. I just can't see supervisors putting up with a "gonna get you back" philosophy at that level. You'd lose any credibility and respect that you had from the coaches.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Jmo, but if you pulled something like that at the D1 level, you'd be pulled yourself shortly thereafter. I just can't see supervisors putting up with a "gonna get you back" philosophy at that level. You'd lose any credibility and respect that you had from the coaches.

Or even working a D3 game featuring the nationally ranked #467 and #389 teams.

[Jway44]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Being vindicitive can hardly be called "game management" skills imo. And I can't believe that the "best officials" would even consider doing something so petty.

Where did being vindictive come from. You have really gone off of the deep end now.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jway44

Where did being vindictive come from. You have really gone off of the deep end now.

"...no matter how bad he is behaving, if you are going to T a coach, always wait until his team has the ball. It just adds a little more insult to the situation. I had never really thought about it, but that is a good idea."

Not vindictive?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jway44

...Everything we do in basketball is based on management of the game...

NO IT IS NOT !

Interestingly enough, when a player commits a foul I blow my whistle because of the foul, not game management.

Too many officials want to jump right over learning judgement and other things associated with calling the game. Going right to game management is not the answer IMO. If I am over simplifying your statement, please explain.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

"...no matter how bad he is behaving, if you are going to T a coach, always wait until his team has the ball. It just adds a little more insult to the situation. I had never really thought about it, but that is a good idea."

Not vindictive?

Two thoughts...
1)"adding insult to the situation" is not something we need to be doing. No matter what the coaches do or say, we MUST be professional at all times (or at least try to be). So as Dan and JR have said - if he/she earns it, give it. Don't wait...

2)The Stop sign is a very "public" thing...everyone in the gym sees it. It might work if the coach is smart and able to control his/her emotions...it might backfire because the emotional coach will consider it as you "showing him/her up" and then really go bonkers on you...either way, once you have done something that visible and public, you have painted yourself into a corner - now the next outburst must be T'd or you lose credibility with both benches..."He gave the big stop sign, but didn't T them?? What can I get away with??"

I have found that a calm, verbal warning to the coach is much better...nobody hears it but the ones it is directed to and it doesn't become a public thing...if the other coach says something about his opponents behavior, a simple "It's been addressed, coach" is all that is needed...still leaves you with options for later in the game. JMHO, for whatever it's worth...

[Jway44]

Originally Posted by tomegun

NO IT IS NOT !

Interestingly enough, when a player commits a foul I blow my whistle because of the foul, not game management.

Too many officials want to jump right over learning judgement and other things associated with calling the game. Going right to game management is not the answer IMO. If I am over simplifying your statement, please explain.

tomegun, I was not referring to calling common fouls or violations. Just to handling "situations" that will arise from game to game. Calling the foul, or violation is the one thing that should be constant. You are correct by stating that you blow your whistle because of the foul. I do think that you can teach people good mechanics, and give them all of the tools to learning good judgement(although some still don't use it) but game management is a skill that one is actually a little harder to aquire.

I think that this topic has gotten away from the way that I referee. I am not vindictive, and as I have said before, If I give a coach a T, then he has really gone over the line. Easpecially in a varsity game where "most" (not all) of the coaches are fairly knowledgeable about the game. I always figure that if they are complaining about something, then we need to listen first and then once our answer is not good enough for them, then you can give the T. Good communication with coaches is the key. They need to feel that you are willing to listen to them even if you know that what they are saying is either false, or just begging. It is often the "space" that officials put between themselves and the coach that can cause a problem. At the same time, we are there to referee the game and the players on the floor, and it is the coaches job to coach the players, not scream or beg to officials.

[Chess Ref]

[QUOTE=rockyroad]
2)The Stop sign is a very "public" thing...everyone in the gym sees it. It might work if the coach is smart and able to control his/her emotions...it might backfire because the emotional coach will consider it as you "showing him/her up" and then really go bonkers on you...either way, once you have done something that visible and public, you have painted yourself into a corner - now the next outburst must be T'd or you lose credibility with both benches..."He gave the big stop sign, but didn't T them?? What can I get away with??"

I don't agree. By being public the coach has painted himself into a corner. If the coach is at the point of a stop sign with me he has been persistently a pain in the a$$ and I probably have cut him too much slack already. He has undoubtly earned his Technical foul....I also work the sub varsity circuit where coaches come and go. My experience is 50% have no clue on how to deal with officials. Maybe I'll change my philosophy if and when I start doing varsity level.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Two thoughts...
1)"adding insult to the situation" is not something we need to be doing. No matter what the coaches do or say, we MUST be professional at all times (or at least try to be). So as Dan and JR have said - if he/she earns it, give it. Don't wait...

2)The Stop sign is a very "public" thing...everyone in the gym sees it. It might work if the coach is smart and able to control his/her emotions...it might backfire because the emotional coach will consider it as you "showing him/her up" and then really go bonkers on you...either way, once you have done something that visible and public, you have painted yourself into a corner - now the next outburst must be T'd or you lose credibility with both benches..."He gave the big stop sign, but didn't T them?? What can I get away with??"

I have found that a calm, verbal warning to the coach is much better...nobody hears it but the ones it is directed to and it doesn't become a public thing...if the other coach says something about his opponents behavior, a simple "It's been addressed, coach" is all that is needed...still leaves you with options for later in the game. JMHO, for whatever it's worth...

Rocky,

Around here, the stop sign is used to communicate with your partners as well as the caoch. The logic is that a coach does not need a warning from each uninformed official. When I see my partners stop sign, it carries the same weight as if I had given it. Your partners probably won't see your calm verbal warning. Then, when they get near the coach, they may feel obligated to give their calm verbal warning. The public display eliminates this redundancy.

Mulk

[Junker]

Personally when I do give the stop sign, I make sure it is seen. I won't say I never try to talk to coaches when they're irate, but if I warn a coach I want it known. Then when you to take care of business everyone knew it was coming. You just have to make sure to take care of business after the warning is given.