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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 03, 2007, 11:34pm
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All contact is not a foul. You can be poked in the eye and the opponent did nothing. I have seen players get hit in the face because they put their face where it does not belong and they get poked in they eye. You cannot call a foul that you do not see. Basketball is a contact sport and sometimes people get poked in the eye. Next thing we are going to suggest is someone gets hit in the face with the basketball we must call something there too.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 03, 2007, 11:37pm
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in 8 years of officiating I have never seen a player with the ball flop -- when I have called these it is VERY evident that they were poked -- NO PLAYER is going to put themselves in a weak position WITH the ball

like I said flops occur when they lose the ball, after a shot or turnover. but any player with an IQ over 2 will not put themselves at a huge disadvantage when they have the ball ESPECIALLY when the STAR player is guarding them -- also after 8 years I would like to think I can sniff out the flops or 2 and sometimes they might sneak by me but they are usually in block charge scenarios

IMO no player will flop here. Also if a player does get poked and lets say I do not call it and the other team steals and scores and player is in pain so I stop the game to see if hes ok -- if his eye is watery like you know what -- I would tell the coach I messed up no problem -- but honest reactions are easy to read IMO

JRUT -- I agree - i am not saying call all pokes in the eye -- I am saying there are instances where it is necessary and you might not have actually seen the POKE

Last edited by deecee; Wed Jan 03, 2007 at 11:41pm.
  #48 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2007, 12:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
All contact is not a foul. You can be poked in the eye and the opponent did nothing. I have seen players get hit in the face because they put their face where it does not belong and they get poked in they eye. You cannot call a foul that you do not see. Basketball is a contact sport and sometimes people get poked in the eye. Next thing we are going to suggest is someone gets hit in the face with the basketball we must call something there too.

Peace
JRut, you're kinda going off in left-field on this one. We're talking about a play where B1 swipes at the ball and the resulting reaction makes it obvious that A1 was poked in the eye.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2007, 12:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
JRut, you're kinda going off in left-field on this one. We're talking about a play where B1 swipes at the ball and the resulting reaction makes it obvious that A1 was poked in the eye.
So a swipe means there is contact? I think I have a right to take my position considering the OP made it clear you did not see the contact. You cannot call something you assume just because the player reacts. I would only call a foul when I see something, not just what I "think" I see. It is a free country. You can call what you want. Many times players fake things to get a call and the example that was made about a baseball game are a perfect example.

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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2007, 01:40am
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Jeff, let me ask you. You ever actually seen the finger contact the eye on this? I think it's almost impossible to catch with the human eye in regular speed. If I don't see the swipe, or if I don't see the hand near the face, I'm not going to call it. But if I see the hand swipe near the face and the ball handler reacts, I'm likely to have a foul.
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Last edited by Adam; Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 01:45am.
  #51 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2007, 01:45am
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OS, what are you protecting the player from? What if he fakes the injury to get out of a 5 second call? If you don't know for sure that he's hurt, why stop the game?
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2007, 02:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Jeff, let me ask you. You ever actually seen the finger contact the eye on this? I think it's almost impossible to catch with the human eye in regular speed. If I don't see the swipe, or if I don't see the hand near the face, I'm not going to call it. But if I see the hand swipe near the face and the ball handler reacts, I'm likely to have a foul.
Yes I have been poked in the eye or near the eye before. And yes I have called someone being poked in the eye when I have seen it. Now what is your point? The issue is whether we call something that we see. If we do not see something, we should not be in the habit of just calling something because it looks bad or because a player falls. If a player falls to the floor do you make a call because a player was around them? What about if a player is hit in the groin area? Do you just call something because you think something happen? If I missed something like this, it will not be the first time and it definitely will not be the last. I know I am not going to call something just because as many have suggest. Once again, this is why we get paid the big bucks to make the tough decisions.

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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2007, 02:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armymanjones
So RF who do you call the foul on? Do you just tag the closest person?
That's not the point. You said that it was was a "good no-call". It was actually a missed foul call. There's a big difference between those two. A missed foul call is never a good no-call.
  #54 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2007, 03:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
At a camp I went to, a very high level D1 official told us, "In the last 4 minutes of the game, any 'meltdown' is a foul. Automatic. No kid is going to fake getting hit in the face in the last 4 minutes of a close game." His definition of a meltdown was a kid just stopping playing to hold a piece of his anatomy. Any time a kid just stops playing and grabs his eye, nose, groin, etc, it's because he was fouled. Call it.

In theory, I understand the desire NOT to call something that you didn't see. But in real life, the kid got fouled. So call it.
I have several friends who are college coaches. I am going to tell them to teach a method where as an offensive player - they go down and get the call - when contact could have happened. If taught properly and practiced, a team can get this call, based on what the very high level Div. I official says.

Last edited by Johnny Ringo; Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 03:27am.
  #55 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2007, 03:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
I think there's a little BS in that serum you're trying to feed us. Remember, this is competition, not a spelling test. If I can get my opponent in foul trouble, I'm going to try, and I know it's taught somewhere. I personally have seen it in the men's game. I have seen players flop, after shooting the ball in order to try and sale that they got hit in the face. Please don't tell me that players won't try and flop to sale a foul call when they got the ball. If my opponent who happens to be a star player or a very good player is in foul trouble and he is guarding me, and takes a swipe at me across my face as I try and maneuver. I grab my face, oh, he just hit me, oh, oh, oh, while still holding the ball. Maybe they don't do that in the games you ref but that's not consistent across the board. Keep reffing, you will be amazed at what you will see over time.
Perfectly said!
  #56 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2007, 03:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I have always ruled an inadvertent poke in the eye to not be a foul. I simply stop the game and give the player a moment or two to recover. Invariably the opponent is apologetic and the game continues nicely.

That's just what works for me.
NevadaRef said it best ... I feel this is the best way to handle this situation. However, if I see the inadvertent poke - I call the foul.

Just like if A1 is attempting a shot and B1 goes for the block and inadvertently makes body contact - Foul there. Of course, if I see it. If he missed the shot badly and crashes to the floor and I missed it because my view was blocked, I don't just assume he must have been fould and blow the whistle.
  #57 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2007, 04:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
That's not the point. You said that it was was a "good no-call". It was actually a missed foul call. There's a big difference between those two. A missed foul call is never a good no-call.
ok if it was missed do you compound it by calling it on who you think caused the foul?
  #58 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2007, 07:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armymanjones
ok if it was missed do you compound it by calling it on who you think caused the foul?
I don't personally, and I also personally don't recommend doing so.

If I am sure of who caused the foul, I will call it.
  #59 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2007, 08:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
So a swipe means there is contact? I think I have a right to take my position considering the OP made it clear you did not see the contact. You cannot call something you assume just because the player reacts. I would only call a foul when I see something, not just what I "think" I see. It is a free country. You can call what you want. Many times players fake things to get a call and the example that was made about a baseball game are a perfect example.

Peace
We're not talking about baseball or freedom in America, we're talking about a basketball play.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 04, 2007, 08:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mplagrow
...but I just tell 'em, do you want me to call what I SEE or what I THINK happened?
Have you really told multiple coaches these exact words or was that the thought that went through your head?
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