team control during freethrow?

[Zoochy]

OK here is my thought on a foul while the ball is at the disposal of A1 but A1 has not picked up the ball. I don't care if there actually is or is not team control. Most likely it would be an Intentional foul. Players are either lined up or not lined up. If there is a foul, then no one is making a play on the ball. You probably have players pushing and/or shoving. Thus Intentional Foul. A1 would shoot the original free throw. The shoot the free throws for the Intentional foul. Ball OOB at the spot of the foul.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

OK here is my thought on a foul while the ball is at the disposal of A1 but A1 has not picked up the ball. I don't care if there actually is or is not team control. Most likely it would be an Intentional foul. Players are either lined up or not lined up. If there is a foul, then no one is making a play on the ball. You probably have players pushing and/or shoving. Thus Intentional Foul. A1 would shoot the original free throw. The shoot the free throws for the Intentional foul. Ball OOB at the spot of the foul.

Rule 6-1-2c: ...the ball becomes live when: On a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Therefore, while the ball is in the officials hand(s) up until the point the free thrower has the ball at his/her disposal, the ball is dead. Contact warranting a whistle during this period would be during a "dead ball" thus a technical foul (4-19-5c).

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If a teammate of the the FT shooter commits a foul after the FT shooter picks up the ball, is it a team control foul and the FT is cancelled?

How is this handled?

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Rule 6-1-2c: ...the ball becomes live when: On a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Therefore, while the ball is in the officials hand(s) up until the point the free thrower has the ball at his/her disposal, the ball is dead. Contact warranting a whistle during this period would be during a "dead ball" thus a technical foul (4-19-5c).

I am well aware that the ball is 'live' when it is at the disposal of the free thrower. Whether the thrower has the ball or the ball is placed on the floor. I am just thinking that if during this time frame, then when a player commits a foul it would be Intentional in nature. So the question of 'Team Control' does not even enter into the equation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

How is this handled?

The only thing that cancels a FT is a violation by Team A. Fouls do not cancel FTs.

Player control is established when a player is dribbling or holding a live ball inbounds. Team control is established at the same time. Batting the ball does not establish team or player control.

During a dead ball, which includes the time before the FT shooter holds the ball, any contact should be ignored unless it is intentional or flagrant. SInce the ball is dead, the foul would be technical, not personal.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Rule 6-1-2c: ...the ball becomes live when: On a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

Therefore, while the ball is in the officials hand(s) up until the point the free thrower has the ball at his/her disposal, the ball is dead. Contact warranting a whistle during this period would be during a "dead ball" thus a technical foul (4-19-5c).

They are discussing a situation in which the FT shooter doesn't accept the ball or is not there due to the RPP and the ball is placed on the floor at the FT line. That is the other way to put it at the disposal of the FT shooter and make the ball live.

So, if A2 fouls B3 during this time what are you going to do?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

They are discussing a situation in which the FT shooter doesn't accept the ball or is not there due to the RPP and the ball is placed on the floor at the FT line. That is the other way to put it at the disposal of the FT shooter and make the ball live.

So, if A2 fouls B3 during this time what are you going to do?

8-1-2 reads ...placed at the disposal of the thrower OR placed on the floor...

I've scanned the rulebook but I haven't found anywhere that states the ball is live solely because RPP is being utilized. 6-1-2 is pretty specific about when a ball becomes live.

Does RPP equate to disposal?

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

They are discussing a situation in which the FT shooter doesn't accept the ball or is not there due to the RPP and the ball is placed on the floor at the FT line. That is the other way to put it at the disposal of the FT shooter and make the ball live.

So, if A2 fouls B3 during this time what are you going to do?

Live ball. Intentional (Personal) Foul!!!!

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

8-1-2 reads ...placed at the disposal of the thrower OR placed on the floor...

I've scanned the rulebook but I haven't found anywhere that states the ball is live solely because RPP is being utilized. 6-1-2 is pretty specific about when a ball becomes live.

Does RPP equate to disposal?

Let's just think about the situation. If you are using RPP for either throw-in or free throw, then when do you start the 5 sec. or 10 sec. count? Once you start the count, then the ball is live. Thus, ball is placed on the floor (at the disposal). Are you starting the count?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

Let's just think about the situation. If you are using RPP for either throw-in or free throw, then when do you start the 5 sec. or 10 sec. count? Once you start the count, then the ball is live. Thus, ball is placed on the floor (at the disposal). Are you starting the count?

I'm looking for definitive status (live/dead) in writing (rulebook or casebook). 6-1-2 states specifcally ball becomes live when at the disposal of the thrower. 8-1-2 lists placing ball at disposal and placing ball on the floor as 2 separate acts.

I would agree with you if 8-1-2 said placed at the disposal of the thrower (including placing the ball on the floor).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

8-1-2 reads ...placed at the disposal of the thrower OR placed on the floor...

I've scanned the rulebook but I haven't found anywhere that states the ball is live solely because RPP is being utilized. 6-1-2 is pretty specific about when a ball becomes live.

Does RPP equate to disposal?

Does this help?

PLACING AT DISPOSAL
8.1.1 SITUATION A: A1 is awarded two free throws. After the players have had sufficient opportunity and time to take their positions for the first throw, the administering official bounces the ball to the free thrower. Did the official follow proper procedure? RULING: Yes. On free throws, the word “disposal,” is interpreted to mean that the official shall bounce the ball to the free thrower, but if the free thrower refuses to accept it, the official may place the ball on the floor at the free-throw line and begin the count. This procedure constitutes putting the ball at the free-thrower's disposal. However, in this situation, the ball becomes live when it is caught by the free thrower. (4-4-7b)

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm looking for definitive status (live/dead) in writing (rulebook or casebook). 6-1-2 states specifcally ball becomes live when at the disposal of the thrower. 8-1-2 lists placing ball at disposal and placing ball on the floor as 2 separate acts.

I would agree with you if 8-1-2 said placed at the disposal of the thrower (including placing the ball on the floor).

If Team B is not ready, then the ball is bounced to A1. Once A1 has the ball it is 'at the disposal'. Team A is not ready, then place the ball on the floor. Once ball is on the floor then it is 'at the disposal'.
I also believe page 59 in case book, Case play 8.1.1 explains it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

How is this handled?

If the ball hasn't left the FT shooter's hands on the shot when a teammate commits the foul, the ball is dead immediately and it's a player control foul. The FT shooter then gets replacement FT(s) with no one on the lanes. If the last FT is made, the opponents get an endline throw-in as after any made FT. If the last FT is missed, the opponents get a spot throw-in at the closest spot to where the team control foul occurred.

As soon as the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, any foul committed by a teammate before the FT is in the air is a team control foul.

Case book play 6.7SitB.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the ball hasn't left the FT shooter's hands on the shot when a teammate commits the foul, the ball is dead immediately and it's a player control foul.

????????????? (let's see, is that ten of them?)