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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 08, 2005, 11:24pm
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Can someone please explain the difference between a player control foul and a team control foul? What are the penalties for each?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 08, 2005, 11:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by tjksail
Can someone please explain the difference between a player control foul and a team control foul? What are the penalties for each?

Under NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA rules, a player control foul is a personal foul that is a common foul that is committed by a player in control of the ball.

Under NCAA and FIBA rules, a team control foul is a personal foul that is a common foul that is committed by any player of the team in control of the ball. A player control foul is a team control foul.

There is no such animal as a team control foul under NFHS rules.

The penalty for player control foul under NFHS rules is that same as a team control under NCAA and FIBA rules. The player that committed the foul is charged with the foul and the offended team receives the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of the foul.

FIBA has had the team control definition in its rules for well over thirty years. Until the late 1970's the NBCUSC (the fore-father of the NFHS and NCAA rules committees) had the team control rule, but then dropped it until the NCAA returned it to the rule book.

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Old Sat Jan 08, 2005, 11:41pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by tjksail
Can someone please explain the difference between a player control foul and a team control foul? What are the penalties for each?
Player control foul is committed by the player in control of the ball (dribbling, or holding). Team control foul is committed by any player on the team that has control of the ball. In NFHS (high school) rules, player control foul brings no shots ever, but does add one to the player's foul count and to the team foul count. NFHS treats a team control foul away from the ball the same as any other foul -- shots if in bonus, etc., and it's not called a "team control foul". It's called an "offensive foul". In college, it's different, but I"m not the expert on that one, someone else can do it.
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Old Sat Jan 08, 2005, 11:49pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by tjksail
Can someone please explain the difference between a player control foul and a team control foul? What are the penalties for each?
Player control foul is committed by the player in control of the ball (dribbling, or holding). Team control foul is committed by any player on the team that has control of the ball. In NFHS (high school) rules, player control foul brings no shots ever, but does add one to the player's foul count and to the team foul count. NFHS treats a team control foul away from the ball the same as any other foul -- shots if in bonus, etc., and it's not called a "team control foul". It's called an "offensive foul". In college, it's different, but I"m not the expert on that one, someone else can do it.

Jullie:

There there is no such animal as an offensive foul in either NFHS or NCAA (or FIBA for that matter). NBA/WNBA has offensive fouls and it is the same as a team control foul in NCAA and FIBA. I know that under NBA/WNBA rules that no free throws are shot if the offensive foul is committed by the player in control of the ball. I am not sure what the penalty is if the foul is by a player not in control of the ball. Maybe Chuck can give us more information about offensive fouls in the NBA/WNBA.

MTD, Sr.
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Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
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Old Sat Jan 08, 2005, 11:52pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by tjksail
Can someone please explain the difference between a player control foul and a team control foul? What are the penalties for each?
Player control foul is committed by the player in control of the ball (dribbling, or holding). Team control foul is committed by any player on the team that has control of the ball. In NFHS (high school) rules, player control foul brings no shots ever, but does add one to the player's foul count and to the team foul count. NFHS treats a team control foul away from the ball the same as any other foul -- shots if in bonus, etc., and it's not called a "team control foul". It's called an "offensive foul". In college, it's different, but I"m not the expert on that one, someone else can do it.
Mark already did that, and as he said there's no such thing as a team control foul under HS rules, nor is there such a thing as an "offensive foul" in HS or NCAA rules. In addition, under ncaa rules PC fouls bring no shots ever, as in nfhs rules.
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Old Sat Jan 08, 2005, 11:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by tjksail
Can someone please explain the difference between a player control foul and a team control foul? What are the penalties for each?
Player control foul is committed by the player in control of the ball (dribbling, or holding). Team control foul is committed by any player on the team that has control of the ball. In NFHS (high school) rules, player control foul brings no shots ever, but does add one to the player's foul count and to the team foul count. NFHS treats a team control foul away from the ball the same as any other foul -- shots if in bonus, etc., and it's not called a "team control foul". It's called an "offensive foul". In college, it's different, but I"m not the expert on that one, someone else can do it.
Jullie:

There there is no such animal as an offensive foul in either NFHS or NCAA (or FIBA for that matter). NBA/WNBA has offensive fouls and it is the same as a team control foul in NCAA and FIBA. I know that under NBA/WNBA rules that no free throws are shot if the offensive foul is committed by the player in control of the ball. I am not sure what the penalty is if the foul is by a player not in control of the ball. Maybe Chuck can give us more information about offensive fouls in the NBA/WNBA.

MTD, Sr.
Mark, I know there's not an officially named category of fouls called "Offensive", but around here at least, we use the word "offensive" as a descriptor of the situation. It's just a word that means, "committed by the team who has control of the ball".
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Old Sun Jan 09, 2005, 12:08am
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by tjksail
Can someone please explain the difference between a player control foul and a team control foul? What are the penalties for each?
Player control foul is committed by the player in control of the ball (dribbling, or holding). Team control foul is committed by any player on the team that has control of the ball. In NFHS (high school) rules, player control foul brings no shots ever, but does add one to the player's foul count and to the team foul count. NFHS treats a team control foul away from the ball the same as any other foul -- shots if in bonus, etc., and it's not called a "team control foul". It's called an "offensive foul". In college, it's different, but I"m not the expert on that one, someone else can do it.
Jullie:

There there is no such animal as an offensive foul in either NFHS or NCAA (or FIBA for that matter). NBA/WNBA has offensive fouls and it is the same as a team control foul in NCAA and FIBA. I know that under NBA/WNBA rules that no free throws are shot if the offensive foul is committed by the player in control of the ball. I am not sure what the penalty is if the foul is by a player not in control of the ball. Maybe Chuck can give us more information about offensive fouls in the NBA/WNBA.

MTD, Sr.
Mark, I know there's not an officially named category of fouls called "Offensive", but around here at least, we use the word "offensive" as a descriptor of the situation. It's just a word that means, "committed by the team who has control of the ball".

Juulie:

I have a very big problem with officials who use incorrect terminology. We have enough problems with coaches, fans, and announcers (not too mention officials) who call “over-the-back” fouls. I do not allow my student officials use incorrect terminology. When an official uses correct terminology he reduces the chance of a coach misunderstanding what is being said to him when he ask an official to explain his call.

MTD, Sr.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
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Ohio High School Athletic Association
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Old Sun Jan 09, 2005, 02:27am
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Mark,

BIG difference between the "over the back" misconception and using "offensive" instead of "player control". One is people thinking something is a foul when it's not. The other is a concise, easy to understand, and pretty accurate description of the infraction.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE I know, when a PC foul happens, blows the whistle and indicates "offense!" in some way, not "player control" or "team control".

I cannot think of a scenario where a coach would misunderstand me if I told him his player commmitted an "offensive foul".

I know why you feel the way you do, but in this case, I think you're being a little officious.
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Old Sun Jan 09, 2005, 02:39am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by tjksail
Can someone please explain the difference between a player control foul and a team control foul? What are the penalties for each?
Player control foul is committed by the player in control of the ball (dribbling, or holding). Team control foul is committed by any player on the team that has control of the ball. In NFHS (high school) rules, player control foul brings no shots ever, but does add one to the player's foul count and to the team foul count. NFHS treats a team control foul away from the ball the same as any other foul -- shots if in bonus, etc., and it's not called a "team control foul". It's called an "offensive foul". In college, it's different, but I"m not the expert on that one, someone else can do it.
Jullie:

There there is no such animal as an offensive foul in either NFHS or NCAA (or FIBA for that matter). NBA/WNBA has offensive fouls and it is the same as a team control foul in NCAA and FIBA. I know that under NBA/WNBA rules that no free throws are shot if the offensive foul is committed by the player in control of the ball. I am not sure what the penalty is if the foul is by a player not in control of the ball. Maybe Chuck can give us more information about offensive fouls in the NBA/WNBA.

MTD, Sr.
Mark, I know there's not an officially named category of fouls called "Offensive", but around here at least, we use the word "offensive" as a descriptor of the situation. It's just a word that means, "committed by the team who has control of the ball".

Juulie:

I have a very big problem with officials who use incorrect terminology. We have enough problems with coaches, fans, and announcers (not too mention officials) who call “over-the-back” fouls. I do not allow my student officials use incorrect terminology. When an official uses correct terminology he reduces the chance of a coach misunderstanding what is being said to him when he ask an official to explain his call.

MTD, Sr.
It's a lot easier to vocalize and sell a PC foul with, "OFFENSE," along with a strong PC signal, just like you would with a block or a push causing a force out.

The term is concise and since the defense CANNOT commit a PC foul, NOBODY could possibly misunderstand what is being called.
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Old Sun Jan 09, 2005, 12:21pm
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I repeat there is no such animal as an "offensive" foul in NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA basketball. If one is going to do his job correctly, one must use the correct terminology. When one uses the correct terminology, he cannot be accused of not knowing what he is discussing. When a professional (and officiating is a profession) uses correct terminology it is very difficult for a coach to turn his words against him.

When a professional does not use correct terminology it makes him look like he doesn't know his subject matter. One can find far too many threads in this forum where officials confuse flagrant technical fouls with flagrant personal fouls as one example or confusing a live ball as the same as whene the game clock is running.

Remember we are the professionals on the court when it comes to the rules and mechancis, not the coaches and we have to project that image all of the time, and our use of correct terminology helps in the aspect of our job.

MTD, Sr.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
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Ohio High School Athletic Association
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 09, 2005, 01:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I repeat there is no such animal as an "offensive" foul in NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA basketball. If one is going to do his job correctly, one must use the correct terminology. When one uses the correct terminology, he cannot be accused of not knowing what he is discussing. When a professional (and officiating is a profession) uses correct terminology it is very difficult for a coach to turn his words against him.

When a professional does not use correct terminology it makes him look like he doesn't know his subject matter. One can find far too many threads in this forum where officials confuse flagrant technical fouls with flagrant personal fouls as one example or confusing a live ball as the same as whene the game clock is running.

Remember we are the professionals on the court when it comes to the rules and mechancis, not the coaches and we have to project that image all of the time, and our use of correct terminology helps in the aspect of our job.

MTD, Sr.
How can one get accused of not knowing the rule by saying offense during a preliminary signal?

It is MUCH different than using OTB or reaching in, or on the floor, because the rule CAN be misinterpreted by these terms.

Offense on a PC foul at the spot is no different than vocalizing, "Illegal screen," and then reporting the block or push. Saying block or push during an illegal screen, DOES open up the official to questions about the call.
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Old Sun Jan 09, 2005, 01:32pm
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I'm with Mark on this one.

There is no such thing as an offensive foul under fed or ncaa rules. This does not change simply because you yell "OFFENSE!!" while pointing down court. I yell "THAT WAY!!", does that mean I just called a "that way" foul?
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Old Sun Jan 09, 2005, 04:57pm
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Now I'm confused with the over the back discussion. I probably sound like an idiot, but is this not a foul? What am I missing here?
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Old Sun Jan 09, 2005, 05:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by tjksail
Now I'm confused with the over the back discussion. I probably sound like an idiot, but is this not a foul? What am I missing here?
Displacing / holding, etc. are fouls.

Jumping higher than the player in front of you and grabbing the ball w/out displacing that player is NOT a foul.

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Old Sun Jan 09, 2005, 05:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by tjksail
Now I'm confused with the over the back discussion. I probably sound like an idiot, but is this not a foul? What am I missing here?
Displacing / holding, etc. are fouls.

Jumping higher than the player in front of you and grabbing the ball w/out displacing that player is NOT a foul.

So is there any penalty for these actions?
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