Ncaa Blarge?

[Larks]

Ok how about this...

When I have a secondary whistle and the play is not in my primary - I almost always tell the other guy to take it (if he hasn't said "I got it" already). If it's in my primary, I'll say, "I got it" and then signal but I make sure he hasnt signaled first.

For me, the above approach does not seem difficult.

Of course I havent worked yet in front of the Cameron Crazies at Duke yet so maybe crowd noise plays a part.



When it's out of my primary, I may "think" block but if he comes out strong charge on the prelim,...I have no problem yeilding to his call unless I have something out of the ordinary....in which case I'll probably come torwards him to talk it out. Violation - Same thing...if I have a travel that preceded the charge, I'll go right at him to make sure he knows I am taking the violation call.

The key is to not give the pre-lim so quick IN DOUBLE WHISTLES. If you have a no doubt about it charge and you are the lone whistle - sell the crap out of it, why not.

Arent we really talking about awareness of other whistles especially in the paint?

I have no problem ending up with a double foul if we blarge it because it rarely happens.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all if you really want to be technical, you could have a double foul in these situations.

How?

We just do not want to go there and rightfully so. We call double fouls in other aspects of the game so I do not know how you can make that statement. Also I was not talking about the players being right or wrong. I am talking about the judgment of the officials

.

Don't get off point. Obviously I know we have double fouls elsewhere. For this discussion we are referring to the block/charge. JR, I don't care who you were talking about. My point is that in the BLOCK/CHARGE scenerio one player is right and one player is wrong. As far as the judgement of the officials one official is wrong and one is right. PERIOD!!! Someone was doing something they should have not been doing. It doesn't negate the fact that this still happens.

Here you go with the "get it right" line. I surely hope you have more to offer than that statement.

You have aproblem with getting calls or plays right? I would hope most of us besides you would want to get the plays right! First of all in the women's game we are doing what is correct. We can get together, discuss the play and make a dicision as to who the foul is on. The men's game doesn't allow that...and thats OK. My intial response was to those who thought that the women handled it better since it didn't require a double foul.

You are "getting it right" when you are following what the rules say. If you pick one, someone is going to feel slighted.

Your more concerned with the coaches feeling slighted then you are getting the right foul. Regardless if you call just one foul or two one or both of the coaches is going to feel,"slighted" as you would say.

If you go with a double foul, you have a wash.

Have a wash? It's not a wash. My bad coach...I screwed up so to be fair I'm going to penalize both of you, so that way it will be a wash. What? You mean we now have to be worried about foul totals matching up and making sure that neither coach is feeling slighted? If we have a block/charge we are already wrong. No way out of it. Double fouls makes both coaches mad. One foul may make one coach mad. If the tape validates the call then who cares. The double foul will always be penalizing a player who didn't do anything to deserve the penalty. All because the officials made a error in calling the play. If anybody is going to feel,"slighted'" it will be the player.

It might not be the best thing, but at least there is not a question of "he did not give me a call night and here is another example."

So what if he/she feels that way. We shouldn't be concerned with that. Its not our JOB to be concerned with if they feel slighted or not. We should be more concerned with getting the call right!!!!

You make it sound like in the Women's game they will not look at tape and disagree with the foul that was decided upon.

Sure they very well might. But if I call the double foul then I'm wrong 100% of the time by penalizing a player that didn't deserve it.

It is not always about whose primary. It could be who had the play from the beginning. Or who had the better angle.

So, now are you advocating calliing out of your area? Because on some earlar threads you were against it. You didn't care who had the better angle. You implied, that would be ball watching and you wouldn't be sure what your other partner was seeing or had seen.

IMO I like the way the women call the Blarge. It makes the most sense. Instead of penalizing both players it only penalizes one. Coming from a coaching background I would rather a official call one foul instead of calling a double foul especially if I knew that my player didn't do anyhting to deserve the penalty. I wouldn't accept the mentality that if I'm wrong then your wrong.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by tomegun

If officials were told to use the proper mechanics to eliminate blarges or their schedule will reflect, blarges would decrease.
Sort of funny like the NCAA tape showing all the mistakes from the previous year, during the tournament!

I understand. I agree with you totally!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

How?

You can call a double foul for many situations. You know this. Stop trying to act like you have never saw one before.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Don't get off point. Obviously I know we have double fouls elsewhere. For this discussion we are referring to the block/charge. JR, I don't care who you were talking about. My point is that in the BLOCK/CHARGE scenerio one player is right and one player is wrong. As far as the judgement of the officials one official is wrong and one is right. PERIOD!!! Someone was doing something they should have not been doing. It doesn't negate the fact that this still happens.

Whatever you say.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

You have aproblem with getting calls or plays right? I would hope most of us besides you would want to get the plays right! First of all in the women's game we are doing what is correct. We can get together, discuss the play and make a dicision as to who the foul is on. The men's game doesn't allow that...and thats OK. My intial response was to those who thought that the women handled it better since it didn't require a double foul.

You are just another example of why the "get it right" philosophy is wrong. You are so concerned with your opinion; you are not really reading what people are telling you. "Getting it right" is an opinion. What you might think is right, to someone else would be done wrong. You should follow procedures and common sense whenever possible. If you get together what is likely going to happen is the stronger and more respected official is going to get their way. It will not be about actually being right. You might not every know who was right until film study. Even then that would be debatable.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Your more concerned with the coaches feeling slighted then you are getting the right foul. Regardless if you call just one foul or two one or both of the coaches is going to feel,"slighted" as you would say. Have a wash? It's not a wash. My bad coach...I screwed up so to be fair I'm going to penalize both of you, so that way it will be a wash. What? You mean we now have to be worried about foul totals matching up and making sure that neither coach is feeling slighted? If we have a block/charge we are already wrong. No way out of it. Double fouls makes both coaches mad. One foul may make one coach mad. If the tape validates the call then who cares. The double foul will always be penalizing a player who didn't do anything to deserve the penalty. All because the officials made a error in calling the play. If anybody is going to feel,"slighted'" it will be the player.

I feel the NCAA Women's rule is stupid. You do not have to agree with me. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

So what if he/she feels that way. We shouldn't be concerned with that. Its not our JOB to be concerned with if they feel slighted or not. We should be more concerned with getting the call right!!!! Sure they very well might. But if I call the double foul then I'm wrong 100% of the time by penalizing a player that didn't deserve it.

Whatever you say.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

So, now are you advocating calliing out of your area? Because on some earlar threads you were against it. You didn't care who had the better angle. You implied, that would be ball watching and you wouldn't be sure what your other partner was seeing or had seen.

Either you do not understand 3 man coverage or you do not understand the conversation we had a while back. Maybe being in Indiana you do not work a lot of 3 man. But it is very common when the ball goes to the cup (where these blarges happen) the official that started the play takes it to its finish.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

IMO I like the way the women call the Blarge. It makes the most sense. Instead of penalizing both players it only penalizes one. Coming from a coaching background I would rather a official call one foul instead of calling a double foul especially if I knew that my player didn't do anyhting to deserve the penalty. I wouldn't accept the mentality that if I'm wrong then your wrong.

Good for you. You can think everything they do is right. I personally do not care. I did not ask for your opinion, I was giving my opinion. I know this; I will not have to worry about it because every code I will work under says this is a double foul.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You can call a double foul for many situations. You know this. Stop trying to act like you have never saw one before.

No kidding! Thats why I made the following comment,

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
Don't get off point. Obviously I know we have double fouls elsewhere.

Originally Posted by JRutledge
First of all if you really want to be technical, you could have a double foul in these situations.

What does, "these situations" mean? We are talking about the block/charge, BLARGE situation.

You are just another example of why the "get it right" philosophy is wrong.

Why is philosophy so wrong? Usually if partners get together the intent is to try and get the call right. We wouldn't get together to get it wrong.

What you might think is right, to someone else would be done wrong.

Exactly why we would get together to see what we both had to make the correct call.

If you get together what is likely going to happen is the stronger and more respected official is going to get their way. It will not be about actually being right.

I suppose that this is possible. I have never worked with partners where they weren't willing to take information from their parthers....I think because the most important thing is to, guess what......get the call right! Imagine that we actually want to do what we get paid for. Coaches could care less how you get to the right decision just as long as you get there.

I feel the NCAA Women's rule is stupid. You do not have to agree with me. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

Naturally I don't agree with you. I would never say that the Men's way of doing it was stupid. However I've been fortunate enough to work Men's and Women's and have experienced this call on both sides. Now granted you never want it to happen, but when it does you have to make a ruling. The Men only have one option, double foul. Neither coach was very happy. On the Women's we got together and made the correct call,(which by the way was validated by the tape.) Granted the visiting coach wasn't happy because she thought her player had a LGP, which she didn't. We explained that she didn't and that the contact was initiated by her player. She didn't agree but it didn't matter. The tape supported the call. We got it right. Mind you we could've gotten wrong, but we didn't. The one good thing is that we didn't have to go double foul and penalize a player that didn't deserve the penalty. We would have been 100% wrong if we had to call a double foul.

Either you do not understand 3 man coverage or you do not understand the conversation we had a while back. Maybe being in Indiana you do not work a lot of 3 man.

95% of the games I work every year is 3 person, anywhere from 75-85 games each season. I feell like I have a pretty good handle on working the 3 person system.

But it is very common when the ball goes to the cup (where these blarges happen) the official that started the play takes it to its finish.

Since most of the basketball I work is on the Women's side we look @ this different. We would rather the official who's primary the play happens in call the play. Most Blarges are always going towards lead away from either C or T.

Good for you. You can think everything they do is right. I personally do not care. I did not ask for your opinion

I don't always think I'm right. I was merely stating why I like the Women's mechanic on handling the Blarge better. Then you directed your opinion @ me, I'm @ least entitled to a response.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Why is philosophy so wrong? Usually if partners get together the intent is to try and get the call right. We wouldn't get together to get it wrong.

Do you think that officials go out on the court with the intent to "get it wrong?" Just because you think you are right, does not mean you are right. This is the reason we have 2 or 3 of us out there in the first place.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Exactly why we would get together to see what we both had to make the correct call. I suppose that this is possible. I have never worked with partners where they weren't willing to take information from their parthers....I think because the most important thing is to, guess what......get the call right! Imagine that we actually want to do what we get paid for. Coaches could care less how you get to the right decision just as long as you get there.

You went on and on about ego in the other posts and you think there will not be any ego or strong opinions in this conversation. The Men's and NF procedure takes that the "opinions" out of it.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Naturally I don't agree with you. I would never say that the Men's way of doing it was stupid. However I've been fortunate enough to work Men's and Women's and have experienced this call on both sides. Now granted you never want it to happen, but when it does you have to make a ruling. The Men only have one option, double foul. Neither coach was very happy. On the Women's we got together and made the correct call,(which by the way was validated by the tape.) Granted the visiting coach wasn't happy because she thought her player had a LGP, which she didn't. We explained that she didn't and that the contact was initiated by her player. She didn't agree but it didn't matter. The tape supported the call. We got it right. Mind you we could've gotten wrong, but we didn't. The one good thing is that we didn't have to go double foul and penalize a player that didn't deserve the penalty. We would have been 100% wrong if we had to call a double foul.

I have worked both Men's and Women's in my career too. This is why I do not like the Women's position. I really do not care what the tape says in this situation. The tape is not something that is going to be discussed until much later. I would rather take the judgment out of the official’s hands in this situation. It is not football and we do not need to debate fouls for a minute or two to make a decision.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

95% of the games I work every year is 3 person, anywhere from 75-85 games each season. I feell like I have a pretty good handle on working the 3 person system. Since most of the basketball I work is on the Women's side we look @ this different. We would rather the official who's primary the play happens in call the play. Most Blarges are always going towards lead away from either C or T.

This is why you like the policy. You have that right. I also have the right to think it is stupid and feel you will not get the "right" call that you will get the call that the crew's strongest official will take. You think a rookie official is going to go against a Final Four official?

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I don't always think I'm right. I was merely stating why I like the Women's mechanic on handling the Blarge better. Then you directed your opinion @ me, I'm @ least entitled to a response.

Fine. Then stop trying to change my position. It is not going to change because you say it here.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is not true. The Men did not adopt the Women's team control signal. The Men did not adopt the Women's coverage area. The Men's did not adopt the back court rule as it relates to 10 seconds. The Men did not adopt the change in closely guarded that the Women have used. There are a lot of things Men's basketball has purposely kept and did not adopt. The committees for both are completely different and that is why there is such a drastic difference in mechanics to rules. If anything, they are trying to keep their identity. The Women’s side seems to be so happy they have a pro league, anything the WNBA does the NCAA Women’s Committee wants to adopt.

Peace

Agree that there are drastic differences between the two. Thats why I didn't say they were the same. What I was implying was that if the Men's committee changes something it is after the women have adopted it already.

For example the women admin free throws with the two bottom spaces left unoccupied. The men are experimenting with this this year. The men now have adopted what the women have done for the last couple of years in allowing all subs to come on a multiple free throws when a injured or DQ'd . player goes out.

Not that the men will adopt everything just that when they do make a change usually it has happened on the women's side already.

Give me some examples about the NCAA Women's committee conforming to the WNBA, other then reporting with two hands. Which I'm sure will funnel to the men in the next couple of years. The women now allow a bleeding player, irritated contact or lost contact to be corrected without taking a required TO or sub if it can be done in 20 seconds. This will funnel across to other leagues because it makes the most sense to keep the game moving.

I'm not saying one side is better then the other. Just that most changes that happen start with the women.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Don't get off point. Obviously I know we have double fouls elsewhere. For this discussion we are referring to the block/charge. JR, I don't care who you were talking about. My point is that in the BLOCK/CHARGE scenerio one player is right and one player is wrong. As far as the judgement of the officials one official is wrong and one is right. PERIOD!!!

I'm not going to read thru this little pissing contest you boys are having, but if you work ncaa-m or nfhs this is absolutely 118% wrong.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Case 4.19.8 Situation C.

Also, BadNewsRef quoted NCAA 7-5-17 and A.R.159 and admits that the word BLARGE is never used.

That is my point exactly. What good is an interpretation if it does not have a rules citation to back it up? With out rule the interpretation loses all integrity and credibility. Without rule it is wrong. As is NF Case 4.19.8 and NCAA A.R. 159.

Let's quit being sheep following whatever the NF or NCAA says blindly. let's make them accountable by making case book interpretation based on rule.

Double fouls can happen but not when legal guarding position by defense is involved against a player with the ball. If the defense maintains LGP and contact is initiated by the ball handler then player control foul. If contact is made by defender who did not get LGP the the onus of responsibility to avoid contact is on him and a blocking foul is to be called. Same if the defense has LGP but moves into the ball handler instead of obliqely; block.

You can not ignore the rules of contact just because NF and NCAA do not have the guts to tell the officials to communicate and decide who had primary coverage and let him take the call.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

Let's quit being sheep following whatever the NF or NCAA says blindly. let's make them accountable by making case book interpretation based on rule

.

FYI...At the regional clinic this year in Chicago, Mary Struckoff said that they are working on putting a case book together like the NFHS has. This would then eliminate the articles in the rule book.

If this happens then it will help clarify a lot of these types of questions.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I think we're past that part of it. Rut was giving his opinion on why he likes the NCAA -M way of handling the blarge and I was debating my view of why I like the way the NCAA-W handle it.

Nothing but a good honest debate that tends to go south from time to time.

OK.

I don't have an opinion 1 way or the other....although I will admit I've both given away my end of a blarge and taken control of my end of a blarge, counter to the rules.

But I usually do it the right way (double foul), and I don't think I've ever had an argument from either side...just a sort of dumb expression, nodding, muttering ok, that's fine, no problem...

edit: you might get the impression that blarges happen 3 or 4 times a game for me. They don't, I can count on 1 hand the blarges I've been a part of.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Agree that there are drastic differences between the two. Thats why I didn't say they were the same. What I was implying was that if the Men's committee changes something it is after the women have adopted it already.

For example the women admin free throws with the two bottom spaces left unoccupied. The men are experimenting with this this year. The men now have adopted what the women have done for the last couple of years in allowing all subs to come on a multiple free throws when a injured or DQ'd . player goes out.

If you know anything about Men's experimental rules, they often are not adopted at all. So I would not be surprised if that rule is not adopted. It is not a big deal.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Not that the men will adopt everything just that when they do make a change usually it has happened on the women's side already.

Could you name something specific? I watch these things closely and I cannot name anything that was specific to the Women's game that was just adopted by the Men's game. Many of the rules changes are made by both at the same time like the Team Control foul.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Give me some examples about the NCAA Women's committee conforming to the WNBA, other then reporting with two hands. Which I'm sure will funnel to the men in the next couple of years. The women now allow a bleeding player, irritated contact or lost contact to be corrected without taking a required TO or sub if it can be done in 20 seconds. This will funnel across to other leagues because it makes the most sense to keep the game moving.

I'm not saying one side is better then the other. Just that most changes that happen start with the women.

Like what? The women changed their coverage area, Men's stayed the same. The women allow walking and talking in reporting, the Men do not allow that you have to come to a complete stop. The Men require a stop clock in mechanics on fouls and out of bounds calls, the Women do not. Women have an airborne shooter rule; the Men have for a very long time never adopted one (at least the way it is administered, we already had this discussion BTW). Shot clock times are different. Point of Interruptions is different in a couple of areas. Guidelines for hand checking, post play, intentional fouls are a little different. I realize you want these things to be the same but they are not. I have seen the Women adopt a lot of things and the Men's side refused. Maybe I do not remember something, but you will have to tell me what the Men adopted that the Women had first.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you know anything about Men's experimental rules, they often are not adopted at all. So I would not be surprised if that rule is not adopted. It is not a big deal.

Other then then extending the 3 point line what other experimental rules have they not adopted.

Could you name something specific? I watch these things closely and I cannot name anything that was specific to the Women's game that was just adopted by the Men's game. Many of the rules changes are made by both at the same time like the Team Control foul.

The biggest change I can think of is the table side switching.That happened with the women first and then after either one year or two went to the men.

Like what? The women changed their coverage area, Men's stayed the same. The women allow walking and talking in reporting, the Men do not allow that you have to come to a complete stop. The Men require a stop clock in mechanics on fouls and out of bounds calls, the Women do not. Women have an airborne shooter rule; the Men have for a very long time never adopted one (at least the way it is administered, we already had this discussion BTW). Shot clock times are different. Point of Interruptions is different in a couple of areas.

Where are the POI's different other then our blarge conversation? I agree again that there are differences and that their will always be.

Guidelines for hand checking, post play, intentional fouls are a little different. I realize you want these things to be the same but they are not. I have seen the Women adopt a lot of things and the Men's side refused. Maybe I do not remember something, but you will have to tell me what the Men adopted that the Women had first.

I'm not referring to POE. These have to stay different because of the different styles of play.

Let me rephrase @ least in the last couple of years most of the changes that are happening are happening on the women's side. I agree there are some that are happening on both. I can't remember...when was the last major change the men made without the women making a change?

I'm sure the men will go to two handed reporting soon. The bleeding/contact player rule will funnel through.

You never answered my question. How are the women trying to be like the WNBA?

[Gimlet25id]

Remembering these as I sit here and watch the game. Men went to Lead bouncing the ball to sideline throw ins that are below the free throw line extended.

As I think of them I will post them.

Also I know that the men were experimenting with a block/charge circle and the wider lane. So Rut you may be correct on the fact they rairly adopt experimental rules.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Other then then extending the 3 point line what other experimental rules have they not adopted.

What extension of the 3 point line? You are the person that made the claim they adopted everything, what did the Men's committee adopt? Can you give 5 examples? Just 5 examples should be easy if you claim they adopt everything.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

The biggest change I can think of is the table side switching.That happened with the women first and then after either one year or two went to the men.

OK, but they did not adopt any other mechanics. They have not adopted the two handed reporting.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Where are the POI's different other then our blarge conversation? I agree again that there are differences and that their will always be.

I'm not referring to POE. These have to stay different because of the different styles of play.

You might be right about this, but the Men's have a could of different foul designations than Women's. Intentional Technical as an example. And I believe there was a foul that was not at all on the Men's side that did not go to POI. I am not sure if that changed, but that was a difference the Men did not adopt.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Let me rephrase @ least in the last couple of years most of the changes that are happening are happening on the women's side. I agree there are some that are happening on both. I can't remember...when was the last major change the men made without the women making a change?

I'm sure the men will go to two handed reporting soon. The bleeding/contact player rule will funnel through.

I seriously doubt that the two hand thing is coming Men's side. For one the NCAA Men's has done a lot to stay totally away from the NBA and their mechanics. Once again the Women adopted almost every procedure and mechanic from the NBA and the Men decided to not use them. So I do not know why you think two hand reporting is coming.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

You never answered my question. How are the women trying to be like the WNBA?

Dude are you serious? You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

Peace