Team Control Signal?

[jritchie]

Thanks for all the help!!! I like the idea of waiting to report at the table before giving the preliminary signal to help communicate what is going on!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by cloverdale

reading the previous postings Nevadaref nailed it...our association wants closed fist...punched fist...secondary signal such as push or block...then throw in spot...

Well each official is going to have to do as instructed by their local area, but there is also going to be a prescribed procedure from the NFHS that should be considered correct nationally. While I have yet to see anything with the NFHS logo on it or that appears in an official publication of the NFHS, I did share what I saw in Referee magazine hoping that it might provide an idea of what may be coming.

Now JR correctly pointed out that in the past that magazine has not been an official source of NFHS rules or mechanics. I thought that I made it clear in my previous post that what I was sharing was not for certain the way the NFHS would be stating to do it when I wrote, "I don't know if it will appear the same way in the NFHS guide or not." If that didn't come across clearly, JR certainly made sure it did.

Additionally, when I made that post I was completely unaware of the new business relationship between Referee Enterprises, Inc. and the NFHS that Rut has detailed. I think that is big news and found it quite interesting. If RM is going to start reproducing official NFHS diagrams and play rulings in its monthly issues, I might even start subscribing.

Furthermore, as I wrote in my previous post I expect this to be in the NFHS preseason guide for basketball which I have yet to see and since I don't work NFHS football as Rut does, I haven't seen that guide either. However, I do officiate NFHS soccer and so have a copy of that preseason guide. Rut's posts made me examine it more closely. Here are some things that I found:
a. on the bottom left of the cover page the logo for Referee appears along with "published by Referee Enterprises, Inc. in cooperation with the NFHS".
b. the top right has "Official publication of the NFHS"
c. the NFHS logo is in the upper left of the cover page
d. The same trademarked PlayPic and MechaniGram inserts as used in Referee Magazine appear throughout the document
e. in the upper left corner of every even numbered page the NFHS logo AND the Referee Ent Inc. logos appear side by side
f. a catalog request card for Referee was tucked inside
I never would have thought to look for any of this stuff without Rut's postings.

So given this new relationship and the timeline for publications, it is not unreasonable to believe that the PlayPic which appeared in the July issue of Referee Magazine could also soon be appearing in the NFHS basketball preseason guide. Due to the publishing deal Ref Ent Inc. has to be aware of some of these official NFHS diagrams before they are distributed to the general public and they could appear in a magazine article a bit in advance. I guess we'll just have to wait a few weeks and see.

[JRutledge]

The Simplified and Illustrated Rulebooks are as official as it gets. I buy these books in football and basketball every year. This year's football book is Referee/NASO all over it. I also have book "Rules by Topic" for football and they will create for basketball and baseball this year as well. These are also NF books published by Referee.

JR is right that in the past Referee was giving rulings and information that my or may not have been official. Those days are over. Actually those days have been over for a few years now because this relationship did not just start this year. You have to separate a case play that is made up where all the levels interpretations are given as compared to a word on mechanics when Referee is creating the books for the CCA and the NF with some content.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So given this new relationship and the timeline for publications, it is not unreasonable to believe that the PlayPic which appeared in the July issue of Referee Magazine could also soon be appearing in the NFHS basketball preseason guide. Due to the publishing deal Ref Ent Inc. has to be aware of some of these official NFHS diagrams before they are distributed to the general public and they could appear in a magazine article a bit in advance. I guess we'll just have to wait a few weeks and see.

Yup, certainly agree with that. If it's got an NFHS logo on it somewhere, you can be pretty sure that it's credible. If it's lacking the FED logo and it's in Referee mag, then you're taking your chances.

It's a good magazine, but they certainly have made mistakes in the past with regards to rules, interpretations and mechanics.

That was my point.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The Simplified and Illustrated Rulebooks are as official as it gets. I buy these books in football and basketball every year. This year's football book is Referee/NASO all over it. I also have book "Rules by Topic" for football and they will create for basketball and baseball this year as well. These are also NF books published by Referee.

JR is right that in the past Referee was giving rulings and information that my or may not have been official. Those days are over. Actually those days have been over for a few years now because this relationship did not just start this year. You have to separate a case play that is made up where all the levels interpretations are given as compared to a word on mechanics when Referee is creating the books for the CCA and the NF with some content.

Peace

Nope, those days aren't over. NASO/Referee is still not approved to issue rulings or case plays. Only the NFHS rulesmakers and their designated state bodies are. Yes, the Simplified and Illustrated book published for the FED by NASO is NFHS-approved, as is the basketball book "Rules By Topic" that NASO is selling. Those books have the FED logo on them. However, Referee/NASO does not sell the NFHS rule book, case book or officials' manual, nor do they have any input into the content of these books either afaik. Those are the 3 main books usually used by all officials.NASO does sell some of their own mechanic books instead, sans the NFHS logo. Those books are not NFHS approved. I don't have a clue whether their content mirrors the FED manual, but if you buy and use any NASO/Referee books that don't have the NFHS logo on them, you are doing so at your own risk.

Case plays printed in Referee magazine are still not approved rulings unless those case plays came from the NFHS rulesmakers or their designated state representatives, not from NASO/Referee writers. Sez so right on the bottom of every second page of every NFHS rule and case book, including this year's.

Please note that I am in no way dissing NASO or Referee magazine. I might also make fun of IAABO, but I have a high regard for that organization too. To be quite honest, the rules might be a lot easier to use and understand if those organizations were involved in the rules-making process. We might not get some of the weird stuff that seems to come out every now and then from the FED. The point that I'm trying to make is that none of those 3 organizations is an official or approved rules source; the FED and it's appointed state bodies are the sole sources extant.

[JRutledge]

I think I need to be clearer about what I am saying.

The NF Publishes the NF Pre-Season Guides. Those books have rulings and interpretations directly from the NF. These books also have mechanics changes as well. When the NF last year put in the Team Control Foul last year, Referee showed the approved mechanic in the magazine and later in the NF Pre-Season Guide. I believe that was discussed last year here or on another website about whether to use a "Team control signal" or not. Last year it was made clear by these two publications directly from Referee Magazine. I am fully aware that Referee Inc. does not publish the NF Rulebooks and Casebooks. The NF does use other areas to put out rulings and mechanics changes that are outside of the rulebook and casebook. Referee Inc has been producing the Pre-Season Guides for Football, Basketball and Baseball since 2000 I believe. My state hands these guides out to anyone that attends our rules meetings. Also in our Rules Meeting PowerPoint Presentations, there have been Referee Inc usage of mechanics and PlayPics to show POE and rules changes for the coming year. Also remember the NF puts out a Quarterly Magazine for each season (and summer).

I think what you are talking about JR is when Referee Magazine, creates their own case plays in a story and rulings are given. This is where authors have made serious mistakes contrary with the rules. Let us also not forget the NF has contradicted themselves while doing the same thing off of the website and the quarterly. If anyone is a football official here and remembers when PSK was put in as a new rule all the problems that were created by the NF when they gave rulings off of the Quarterly Magazine and the website. Same thing happen in football when a new rule was put in place to allow a scoring team to accept a penalty and keep the points on the board. It was not Referee Magazine that had anything to do with those mess ups.

Now you might not be aware all of this if you do not purchase the NF Pre-Season Guide on a yearly basis. My state has a very close relationship with the NF and our dues pays for a lot of these things and we get them free just for having a license or attending rules meetings. So almost all of our content comes directly from the NF and Referee Magazine produced most of the content.

No one has said that Referee produces the Rulebooks, Casebooks, Official's Manuals or Handbooks. But it is very clear the NF has collaborated with Referee Magazine and much of what is put into Referee Magazine is coming directly from the NF. I would find it hard to believe that they are creating a book with actual mechanics involved they would not have some insight as to what is "official." I do not think we are in disagreement, you might not be aware of all these things and the only reason I am defending Nevada adamantly on this issue. He is very likely right. I bet the very same thing Nevada saw will be in the Rules Meeting slides and in the Simplified and Illustrated Rulebooks. If you are a NASO Member and you get a copy of the Simplified and Illustrated book, you will hardly know there is a difference between the two parties.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think what you are talking about JR is when Referee Magazine, creates their own case plays in a story and rulings are given. This is where authors have made serious mistakes contrary with the rules. Let us also not forget the NF has contradicted themselves while doing the same thing off of the website and the quarterly.

I would find it hard to believe that they are creating a book with actual mechanics involved they would not have some insight as to what is "official."
Peace

Yup, if the mechanic printed in Referee was lifted from the FED Illustrated book, it's almost sure to be completely correct. My point was that NASO was also selling their own mechanics books, and others, without those books having any apparent NFHS input and also lacking the FED label. Those mechanic books might be completely right also, but the only real approved mechanics book is the latest NFHS Officials Manual. That's the book that people should buy first.

Iow, you're right, we aren't really disagreeing about the FED comic book or anything out of it. It's some of the other stuff in some of the Referee/NASO publications that could possibly be wrong.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, if the mechanic printed in Referee was lifted from the FED Illustrated book, it's almost sure to be completely correct. My point was that NASO was also selling their own mechanics books, and others, without those books having any apparent NFHS input and also lacking the FED label. Those mechanic books might be completely right also, but the only real approved mechanics book is the latest NFHS Officials Manual. That's the book that people should buy first.

Iow, you're right, we aren't really disagreeing about the FED comic book or anything out of it. It's some of the other stuff in some of the Referee/NASO publications that could possibly be wrong.

I see what you are saying. The Basketball Official's Guidebook that NASO put out was not an "Official" book. In the past there were things in this book that were not official mechanics or had some editorial points of view.

For the record I have not seen the Simplified and Illustrated book Basketball book yet. I will likely order them tomorrow.

Peace

[Junker]

We discussed the new mechanic at our camps this summer. The way to go in my area is to give the foul signal to stop the clock, use the team control foul mechanic and as you report verbalize what the foul was (illegal screen, push and so forth). Personally I don't like the added mechanic, but it has more to do with getting used to it than anything else.

[26 Year Gap]

How many games into the season before we hear some fan yell "He didn't PUNCH him!" ?

[Nevadaref]

For the record, it turned out that I was absolutely right! What I previously posted appeared in exactly the same form on page 5 of the 2006-07 NFHS Basketball Preseason Guide.

(I wonder what JR thinks of that. )

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I would expect the details of this new mechanic to show up in the pre-season guide the NFHS publishes each year. There are always those mechani-grams and playpics that show us exactly what the NFHS wants.

Along those lines, and I don't know if it will appear the same way in the NFHS guide or not, the July issue of that other magazine has a playpic for the sequence of signals to be given on a team-control foul. It is on page 72 and has FOUR parts.
1. One-hand fist to indicate foul
2. Punch signal to designate team-control foul
3. Preliminary signal to indicate nature of foul (in this case, pushing)
4. Indicate spot for the designate-spot throw-in

That is what I am doing until I see something from the NFHS.

[bob jenkins]

You went back more than a year to post "I was right"?

Lah me.

Based not only on this. but on other threads (including in other forums), this board needs a function that automatically closes a thread after a couple of weeks.

[IREFU2]

IMHO, during a fast paced game, and a bang, bang TC foul, you are more likely to see the a quick punch of the fist instead of the Fist in the air first. Once at the table, that where the clarification will come in. That just my opinion.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You went back more than a year to post "I was right"?

Nevada lists all threads in 2 columns, marked "Threads in which I've been vindicated" and "Threads in which I've not yet been vindicated." He's just tying up loose ends.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Nevada lists all threads in 2 columns, marked "Threads in which I've been vindicated" and "Threads in which I've not yet been vindicated." He's just tying up loose ends.

Nevada, I recommend an excel spreadsheet to track these, it'll make things easier in the long run.