Team Control Foul Signal Sequence

[refnrev]

Some have asked about the signal for the new team control foul. In the August 2005 Referee magazine issue it outlines it. On page 70 a play pic has the following sequence. It says that "officials will not have to learn a new signal for the team control foul. The following sequence of signals will be used.

1. One hand fist to indicate foul.
2. Preliminary signal to indicate nature of the foul.
3. Point to opposite end of the floor.
4. Indicate spot for the designated spot throw-in.

Oddly enough, the signal used in #2 in the play pic is for a block. That might confuse someone!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by refnrev
Some have asked about the signal for the new team control foul. In the August 2005 Referee magazine issue it outlines it. On page 70 a play pic has the following sequence. It says that "officials will not have to learn a new signal for the team control foul. The following sequence of signals will be used.

1. One hand fist to indicate foul.
2. Preliminary signal to indicate nature of the foul.
3. Point to opposite end of the floor.
4. Indicate spot for the designated spot throw-in.

Oddly enough, the signal used in #2 in the play pic is for a block. That might confuse someone!

The block, along with the hold, has long been used to signal a bad screen (which I think the majority of TC fouls will be).

In practice I don't think this is a big deal at all. It really won't be any different than any other off-ball foul in previous years, except if you didn't point before you will now. But early in the year you may have to say something to the coach as you pass about "team control foul, no free throws."

[BktBallRef]

I think we're going a little overboard on this team control foul issue. The team control foul, by definition, is new. But it's only new because of the penalty. The type of contact that previously constituted a foul is the same. The only thing that has changed is that we will no longer shoot FTs in these types of circumstances.

There's no need for a new signal. There's no new team control signal in the NCAA or the NBA. One isn't needed in NFHS either.

[blindzebra]

NCAA men, TC and PC foul have the same signal, hand behind head.

NCAA women has the punch for a TC foul.

[refnrev]

BZ,
NFHS couldn;t use that one. It would make too much sense!

[Love this Game]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I think we're going a little overboard on this team control foul issue. The team control foul, by definition, is new. But it's only new because of the penalty. The type of contact that previously constituted a foul is the same. The only thing that has changed is that we will no longer shoot FTs in these types of circumstances.

There's no need for a new signal. There's no new team control signal in the NCAA or the NBA. One isn't needed in NFHS either.

Tony you seem to be the man to ask regarding rules, so I want to be totally clear abt this.

A1 has the ball, A2 sets an illegal screen on B2. Under the new rule are you saying that we will treat it as it was a player control foul and no foul shooting for B2 if A is in the penalty.

Is that an correct assessment.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Love this Game

Tony you seem to be the man to ask regarding rules, so I want to be totally clear abt this.

A1 has the ball, A2 sets an illegal screen on B2. Under the new rule are you saying that we will treat it as it was a player control foul and no foul shooting for B2 if A is in the penalty.

Is that an correct assessment.

Review 4-12.

It's not that complicated.

The only tricky ones are:

Loose balls, remember team control continues with the last team in control.

Rebounds, fouls during rebounding could be common or team control. No TC during shot and rebounding action without a player gaining control. A1 shoots, A3 grabs the rebound then A4 fouls B2, and you have a TC foul. A1 shoots and A4 fouls B2 and you have a common foul and free throws if B is in the bonus.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Love this Game
Tony you seem to be the man to ask regarding rules, so I want to be totally clear abt this.

A1 has the ball, A2 sets an illegal screen on B2. Under the new rule are you saying that we will treat it as it was a player control foul and no foul shooting for B2 if A is in the penalty.

Is that an correct assessment.

Yes, it is. If A has team control and a member of A commits a foul, no FTs are shot by B unless the foul is intentiuonal, flagrant, or technical.

[Love this Game]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Yes, it is. If A has team control and a member of A commits a foul, no FTs are shot by B unless the foul is intentiuonal, flagrant, or technical.

So my ? is this, what is teh logic of making this rule change.

Dosent that take away from good defense from the defensive team.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Love this Game

So my ? is this, what is teh logic of making this rule change.

Basically to bring the NFHS rules in line with NCAA. I suppose the rationale would be to stay consistent with all fouls committed by the offensive team.

Dosent that take away from good defense from the defensive team.

Not really - they may lose a few free throw opportunities over the course of a season, but they'll be gaining the ball back instead (think of how many off-ball offensive fouls you call in a game, then think of how many of those occur while the offended team is in the bonus.)

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Love this Game
So my ? is this, what is teh logic of making this rule change.

If A1 commits a player control foul, no FTs are shot. If A2 sets an illegal screen, B1 shoots FTs if B is in the bonus. What logic is there in that? Team is penalized twice for A2's foul, once by losing the ball and twice by B1 getting FTs.

Dosent that take away from good defense from the defensive team.

Why? The defense gets the ball, don't that?

Further, if A2 sets an illegal screen, how is that good defense? That's simply a foul on A2. It has nothing to do with good defense.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jul 31st, 2005 at 11:13 PM]

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Love this Game

So my ? is this, what is teh logic of making this rule change.

Dosent that take away from good defense from the defensive team.

In reality taking a charge requires much better defense than running into an illegal screen, so wouldn't a PC foul penalize it more?

[Love this Game]

Originally posted by blindzebra

In reality taking a charge requires much better defense than running into an illegal screen, so wouldn't a PC foul penalize it more?

BZ we all know on a player control foul no one shoots, but based on this new rule we will be shooting less free throws and wont have to call a foul and walk all the way down the other side of the court just to shoot. I dont like it as a player, I could really care less as an official it really helps us as far as we dont have to remember who the person who is to be shooting freethrows at the other end is anymore. We dont have to go the length of the court to administer a free throw. We just put it in play at the POI.

BZ well now i am speaking as a player not an official, I would not like this call based on the fact that A1 has the ball A2 set an illegal screen on B1 and B team is shooting 1 and 1. Especially near the end of the game and we are down 1.

But if B3 fouls A3 off ball and A is in the 1 and 1 they get to shoot.

In my last post I was talking more as a player not an official. Does this help you out now with what I was saying.

[Edited by Love this Game on Aug 1st, 2005 at 07:08 AM]

[tomegun]

I think there is a big fuss about a small change. Someone mentioned before about how little this will matter for free throws. It is not a big deal. Put the ball in play and continue.

The signal we use is also a small issue. Communication will be the key. Many tables in a high school game don't pay attention to whatever we do anyway. The use of our voices is lacking from what I've seen and not heard recently. We can still talk on the court can't we?

By the way, I have never used the team control signal in a college game and I've never had an observer say anything about it to anyone on any crew I've worked with. I have called fouls in these situations. I just try to make it perfectly clear what I have when I call the foul. YMMV

[Love this Game]

Originally posted by tomegun
I think there is a big fuss about a small change. Someone mentioned before about how little this will matter for free throws. It is not a big deal. Put the ball in play and continue.

The signal we use is also a small issue. Communication will be the key. Many tables in a high school game don't pay attention to whatever we do anyway. The use of our voices is lacking from what I've seen and not heard recently. We can still talk on the court can't we?

By the way, I have never used the team control signal in a college game and I've never had an observer say anything about it to anyone on any crew I've worked with. I have called fouls in these situations. I just try to make it perfectly clear what I have when I call the foul. YMMV

Tome I hear what you are saying, but it has nothing to do with a big deal, we all have our opinion and I could care less abt what signal to use. I just dont like the ideal from a players stand point. I love it as an official but I do still play. And most leagues and tournaments you play in plays under High School rules with some modifications.