Talking to coaches

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Absolutely disagree. If you saw no foul then say so, that grinds the debate to an immediate halt. All he can say is "You didn't see THAT?" And you can say "nope".

End of discussion.

Doing it your way leaves the point open for discussion.

Absolutely agee. 113%

"Any contact there was incidental, coach".

Then stfu. You can't quote silence, and there ain't gonna be an argument if only one person is talking. The coach knows that he ain't gonna get that call. He's usually (1) trying to make a point ..or..(2) trying to get the next call. Either way, it don't really matter what your response is; he's just wants to get his point across and it doesn't really matter to him what you're saying anyway. Just nod your head to show that you heard him, and then keep on a-motoring.

[JugglingReferee]

Don't forget about the things you shouldn't say:

- that wasn't my call
- I wasn't in the right position to see that
- we don't call that

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Don't forget about the things you shouldn't say:

- that wasn't my call
- I wasn't in the right position to see that
- we don't call that

"You coach, I'll referee".....

You know the response that you're gonna get if you use that one.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

"You coach, I'll referee".....

You know the response that you're gonna get if you use that one.

Yup. I think I used that one early in my career. IIRC, it backfired.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

"You coach, I'll referee".....

You know the response that you're gonna get if you use that one.

When I was a younger referee I heard a seasoned veteran say to a coach, "Ya know coach, I really do suck tonight - and you are doing a horrible job coaching - why don't we switch, it can't hurt can it?"

I'd never have the balls to do that but it sure shut him up!

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

When I was a younger referee I heard a seasoned veteran say to a coach, "Ya know coach, I really do suck tonight - and you are doing a horrible job coaching - why don't we switch, it can't hurt can it?"

I'd never have the balls to do that but it sure shut him up!

I like this one. I just might have to try it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Don't forget about the things you shouldn't say:

- that wasn't my call
- I wasn't in the right position to see that
- we don't call that

I disagree with the last two on your list.

For one a coach might complain to the official that has no idea what happen or is not looking in that area. You need to let the coach know you cannot respond intelligently to something you have no idea what took place. I have told coaches this many times when a call was right in front of my partner and I have no idea what was called. Also I want the coach to ask the appropriate official the question instead of nagging me or non-calling officials about calls we could not have seen. I would hope my partners would say a similar thing when I make a call that he/she clearly did not see. Also this would vary a bit if I am dealing with a much greener partner or partners and I may be more supportive with comments. I tend to pregame that as individual officials we should explain our own calls if there is not a double whistle and if our partners did not see why we made a call in the first place. I have made this comment several times and I cannot think of one time it got me in trouble. As a matter of fact it kept me out of more trouble and added credibility to the crew.

The second one I have said many times as well. When a coach starts talking about moving screens, over the back calls or reaches as an example. I tell them flat out I do not call those things. I also explain what I mean and what the rule actually is if I have time.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

For one a coach might complain to the official that has no idea what happen or is not looking in that area. You need to let the coach know you cannot respond intelligently to something you have no idea what took place.

I agree the official needs to speak intelligently. Telling him/her that you were out of position isn't intelligent.

You've left it open that perhaps the official should be looking in that area. Instead, the official could say, "Coach, I had a strong matchup and followed the ball carrier to the hoop."

Never admit incompetency.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have told coaches this many times when a call was right in front of my partner and I have no idea what was called.

So you tell him you weren't in the right position to see something your P is responsible for? Of course you're not in the right position! Where you should be is dictated by your responsibilities, not your P's. If you do see something your P is responsible for, it's a bonus if the crew grabs it.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also I want the coach to ask the appropriate official the question instead of nagging me or non-calling officials about calls we could not have seen.

I agree with this. It's simple: "He can answer your question better than I can."

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would hope my partners would say a similar thing when I make a call that he/she clearly did not see. Also this would vary a bit if I am dealing with a much greener partner or partners and I may be more supportive with comments.

If you're with a newbie, and you, the senior, more experienced official of the crew, admit to being out of position, I see a coach unsure of officiating ability.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I tend to pregame that as individual officials we should explain our own calls if there is not a double whistle and if our partners did not see why we made a call in the first place.

Ok, this is nothing but Refereeing 101.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have made this comment several times and I cannot think of one time it got me in trouble. As a matter of fact it kept me out of more trouble and added credibility to the crew.

Of course it worked; you didn't admit to incompetency!

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The second one I have said many times as well. When a coach starts talking about moving screens, over the back calls or reaches as an example. I tell them flat out I do not call those things. I also explain what I mean and what the rule actually is if I have time.

Over the back? Reaches? What are those, again? In the coaches mind, most likely an over the back call is his player being displaced. He doesn't care what you name the supposed illegal act, just that it gets penalized. If it truly was a 'push' (and by all means should have been a foul), but the coach calls it an 'over the back', are you going to tell him that you don't call OTBs? You're better off to say, "There was no advantage", or "We've called it the same at each end, play on."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I agree the official needs to speak intelligently. Telling him/her that you were out of position isn't intelligent.

You've left it open that perhaps the official should be looking in that area. Instead, the official could say, "Coach, I had a strong matchup and followed the ball carrier to the hoop."

Never admit incompetency.

Incompetence? Now who is making this more complicated?

The point is you should not make a coach believe you knew something you did not. Telling them you were not in a position to see something is not at all incompetent. It is the truth. Coaches need to understand that not everyone is looking at the same thing. It is really that simple. Remember, you said "NEVER" as it related to this topic. I am just taking a point of view that "NEVER" is too board.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

So you tell him you weren't in the right position to see something your P is responsible for? Of course you're not in the right position! Where you should be is dictated by your responsibilities, not your P's. If you do see something your P is responsible for, it's a bonus if the crew grabs it.

I agree with this. It's simple: "He can answer your question better than I can."

If you're with a newbie, and you, the senior, more experienced official of the crew, admit to being out of position, I see a coach unsure of officiating ability.

I think you are taking the "out of position" part too personally. Being not in position to make a call can mean a lot of things. I know if I am on the other side of the court and there is an out of bounds call made by my partner, I am probably not in a good position to make a call or help my partner. So when the coach wants me to help him out, I can clearly tell the coach “I am not in position to see whether he stepped on the line.”

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Over the back? Reaches? What are those, again? In the coaches mind, most likely an over the back call is his player being displaced. He doesn't care what you name the supposed illegal act, just that it gets penalized. If it truly was a 'push' (and by all means should have been a foul), but the coach calls it an 'over the back', are you going to tell him that you don't call OTBs? You're better off to say, "There was no advantage", or "We've called it the same at each end, play on."

You do not have to agree with my point of view on this. I just took an opposition on your comments because you said "NEVER" and there clearly is a time I can think of where those comments would apply within some context. Also I have "NEVER" heard a clinician or much more experienced official (while attending a clinic or talking to about the game) to never say those things. As a matter of fact I have heard many officials (clinicians for example) to tell a coach all kinds of things to make it clear they were "out of position" to know what happen or to make a call. Being out of position does not always have to deal with incompetence. Being out of position might have might have to be the fact the system put you in a position to call only certain things. Also I do care what a coach calls a particular foul, because "over the back" is not a foul nor has anything to do with the actual rule. So to me it matters what types of fouls they describe. I might not comment the first time those terms are used, but when a coach is complaining every time of the court about "over the back" and "reaching" we might have to have a little talk.

Also it really does not matter if we agree on all of this. If I have learned anything from this site or talking to other officials over the years and in the multiple sports I work, not everyone is going to agree on what works and what does not when dealing with coaches. If you feel those things should never be said, you definitely have the right to feel that way. I also know that talking to coaches is an art and one size does not fit all. A lot of success talking to coaches is your body language, facial expressions and your previous history with a coach and the general demeanor the coach has can all change what you say and what you do not say. I also think the most important issue is to fit your personality. When I attended a camp this summer one of the clinicians stated that Jim Burr is a very serious official that does not take a lot of crap. He tends to have a surly demeanor and no one messes with him during games. Tim Higgins is known as the complete opposite of Burr's demeanor. Higgins is known to tell jokes, keep everyone on the court in stitches with laughter and no one messes with him. Both Burr and Higgins are considered to be pretty much similar in talent and ability. Both work all the big games on TV (or at least is seems that way) and have the same kind of respect from the coaches that they work with. Both do not have the same approach to the game, but get the job done when it counts. So JR if you do not like to use certain words that is great if it works for you. It just might not work for me.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I agree the official needs to speak intelligently. Telling him/her that you were out of position isn't intelligent.... Never admit incompetency.

There is a difference between being out of position and not being in position to make a call or see a play

To me, out of position means I wasn't where I supposed to be to referee a play in my primary.

Not being in position to make a call or see a play means the play wasn't in my primary and I either couldn't see the play or I had match-ups in my area that precluded me from extending my coverage.

And if I were out of position and I blew a call, and the coach isn't or hasn't been an a$$-hole, I might say something like "Yeah, I think I blew that one, I didn't put myself in a good position to see the play." If the coach is an a$$-hole, then I just say "I might have missed that one Coach." I wouldn't consider it admitting "incompentence", just admitting a possible mistake.