Fight during game

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92
the "your both being watched" lecture, or a double technical foul.[/COLOR

• A1 shoves B1

I have a personal foul on A1, based on the video and what I saw.

And for the takedown and pummelling, I have a fragrant technical and B1 is gone.

A common foul on A1 followed by tossing B1? Agree. That call stinks imo too.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

• A1 secured loose ball then elbowed B1 in the midsection

From the video, I cannot tell 100% that he made contact when he swung around. I don't see B1 bend over as to what a normal reaction would be if he'd taken a hard shot to the midsection. If no contact, then I have an excessive swinging of arms violaton. If any contact, then I have a player control foul.

• B1 got in A1's face on the way up the court

I stop play, get those two together, tell them that nothing extra-curricular is going to happen during this ballgame and that they are being watched. Then I inform my partner to keep an eye on both players.

• A1 & B1 kept running their mouths at each on the way up the court

Depending on the severity of the exchange, I either stop play and give them the "your both being watched" lecture, or a double technical foul.

• A1 shoves B1

I have a personal foul on A1, based on the video and what I saw.

And for the takedown and pummelling, I have a fragrant technical and B1 is gone.

Interestingly, as the players are coming up the court you can see a coach for Team B jumping up and down, wanting either a double dribble or a travel, can't really make it out. I would have thought he'd be complaining about that thrown elbow?? I mean, he was a lot closer to the play than the video camera. Maybe it wasn't as bad as you and some others are making it out to be.......JMO

I too saw the double dribble (didn't notice the coach). The A1 picked up the loose ball, dribble 2-3 times before catching the ball and pivoting (possible elbow), dribbled again, caught the ball, then passed. I don't think the elbows appeared to turn any faster then the body...so no elbow violation. I also agree that it looks like there was no contact on that elbow/pivot based on the reactions of B1. The push by A1 (taken alone...without prior incident) was a garden variety push....worthy of a personal foul..nothing more. B1 whould get a flagrant T for fighting...an expected response would have been a return push, not a beating.

As far as the legal element, A1's push was not criminal. It was a rules violation but not crime. B1's actions passed way beyond a rules violation and certainly appeared to be criminal. The actions appeared unprovoked; you should expect to be pushed in basketball from time to time.

[Corndog89]

I just started reading this thread tonight and don't really have anything relevant to add to the fight discussion. But this being an officials' forum, after watching and pausing the extended video several times, I do have some comments on the officiating, which curiously, has been mostly ignored.

1. The lead official on the rebound end of the play seems awfully nonchalant. He appears to be looking directly at the elbow swing which doesn't appear to make much contact (if any) and may or may not be an out-of-control elbow swinging violation (again, hard to tell). But the rebounder does appear to double dribble. He definitely dribbles twice. He secures the ball, puts it on the floor, and though it may have been knocked out of his hand by the eventual KO kid (can't tell from the video) he certainly bounces twice in control...looks like a dribble to me. He then again holds the ball, throws the elbows, and then dribbles again before passing off. Looked like a double dribble to me. The official looked unwilling to call anything, which suggests to me (please note the language, "suggests") there had not been a building chain-of-events that led to the eventual fight. In a rec-league game I probably wouldn't have called anything at that point either if the game had been in control. If there had been tempers building I would have called either the elbows or the DD and to quote Barney Fife, "Nip it in the bud".

2. From the video, the new lead official at the fight end of the floor appears to be looking at the push and the KO punch and then looks toward the shot. Even with the one kid on the floor with the other one wailing away, that official appears very hesitant to do anything. He very tentatively and very slowly walks toward the melee, and his partner takes forever to re-appear in the video from the far end of the court. I'm sure most if not all of us have been involved in games as an official when a fight or near-fight breaks out. My first move every single time has been to race to the fight and attempt to break it up...even as a rugby referee, where fights were much more common, I did that. If effective game management and/or pro-active officiating doesn't prevent a fight...and it doesn't always...as the official I feel responsible to take immediate actions to stop it.

3. Finally, this video demonstrates why we as officials have to take every game we call seriously and not just be there for the pay. If you don't want these games, and I respect guys like JRut who no longer take rec games for just this reason, then don't take them. But if you take them, then by-God officiate them properly.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The push by A1 (taken alone...without prior incident) was a garden variety push....worthy of a personal foul..nothing more. B1 whould get a flagrant T for fighting...an expected response would have been a return push, not a beating.

Well, that's kinda interesting since the Lawrence kid already admitted in the one story posted that he elbowed the other kid on the way up the court.

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/14892378.htm

Quote "I think I elbowed him in the chest as we were running down the court...." Unquote.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Are you saying now that players should take it upon themselves to teach players from the other team a lesson if they feel justified??

I've been away for a couple days, so I'm just catching up on this thread, but I honestly don't understand what's got your panties in such a wad, IU. Nobody's saying that players should take it upon themselves to teach somebody a lesson. Nobody. Who said that? Where did you see that? It's not anywhere in this thread. This is a terrible and unfortunate incident. And if the two young men have any character at all, or any caring adults in their lives, they will each learn some important lessons from it. I don't think anyone can argue with that. Do you disagree with that? Do you think that there is no lesson to be learned for either player?

The fact that there are important lessons to be drawn in no way justifies the actions of either player. No one here is saying, "It's a good thing that kid took it upon himself to kick the crap out of that troublemaker". As Rut said, the white kid just didn't realize who he was messing with and now both kids will have to face the consequences of the incident.

That kind of action/retaliation is way way way over the line.

And, as I already mentioned (you may recall), everybody here agrees with you. Everybody. Every single poster. Count 'em. Hands up if you think it wasn't over the line. Anyone? Anyone? Bueler? Bueler? Nope. We all agree with you. Now take a deep breath.

This was not a 'fight', as that takes two people.

I think the FED would disagree with you. As JR pointed out, an action that provokes a fight is a fight. It might be worth your while to listen to JR once in a while, when he's not being cranky.

I would guarantee that any NBA player that did this exact same thing would be fined thousands of dollars and suspended for a number of games. How do I know that? Because players have been suspended and fined for much less.

That's fascinating, but hardly relevant. The NBA operates in its own world, where players earn millions of dollars and fans pay $1,000 for a seat at a game. That doesn't relate at all to a HS game, unless David Stern has just become commissioner of that summer league.

Chuck, Just wanted to let you know that I've scanned this post 5 times for mis-spellings and/or using a word in the wrong context. I didn't find any, so rest easy. It sure has got to be a burden to be you, to have made thousands of posts and to have never made a typo or mis-used a word.

My spelling and grammar contributions to this board are generally made in a light-hearted manner and usually accompanied by a smilie of some sort. If you choose to respond in a different manner, that's your small-minded choice.

And second, this kid did not deserve to be taught a lesson in this fashion.

Oh, for the love of God, no freakin' kidding!!! Get over yourself. We all agree with this!!!!!!!

Depending on the severity of the exchange, I either stop play and give them the "your both being watched" lecture, or a double technical foul.

I guess you only scanned this one 4 times. Here's a smilie to let you know there's no hard feelings.

Now relax, would you please?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

1) Bueler? Bueler?

2) I guess you only scanned this one 4 times. Here's a smilie to let you know there's no hard feelings.

1) Well, I certainly would hate to be labelled "cranky", but the correct spelling is Bueller, dickhead.

2) To help IU Grad with the difference between "your" and "you're", may I respectfully submit the following:



- and anybody that thinks that I was being serious because I never attached a "smilie" above..... you really really needs a sense-of-humor transplant.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

I just started reading this thread tonight and don't really have anything relevant to add to the fight discussion. But this being an officials' forum, after watching and pausing the extended video several times, I do have some comments on the officiating, which curiously, has been mostly ignored.

1. The lead official on the rebound end of the play seems awfully nonchalant. He appears to be looking directly at the elbow swing which doesn't appear to make much contact (if any) and may or may not be an out-of-control elbow swinging violation (again, hard to tell). But the rebounder does appear to double dribble. He definitely dribbles twice. He secures the ball, puts it on the floor, and though it may have been knocked out of his hand by the eventual KO kid (can't tell from the video) he certainly bounces twice in control...looks like a dribble to me. He then again holds the ball, throws the elbows, and then dribbles again before passing off. Looked like a double dribble to me. The official looked unwilling to call anything, which suggests to me (please note the language, "suggests") there had not been a building chain-of-events that led to the eventual fight. In a rec-league game I probably wouldn't have called anything at that point either if the game had been in control. If there had been tempers building I would have called either the elbows or the DD and to quote Barney Fife, "Nip it in the bud".

2. From the video, the new lead official at the fight end of the floor appears to be looking at the push and the KO punch and then looks toward the shot. Even with the one kid on the floor with the other one wailing away, that official appears very hesitant to do anything. He very tentatively and very slowly walks toward the melee, and his partner takes forever to re-appear in the video from the far end of the court. I'm sure most if not all of us have been involved in games as an official when a fight or near-fight breaks out. My first move every single time has been to race to the fight and attempt to break it up...even as a rugby referee, where fights were much more common, I did that. If effective game management and/or pro-active officiating doesn't prevent a fight...and it doesn't always...as the official I feel responsible to take immediate actions to stop it.

3. Finally, this video demonstrates why we as officials have to take every game we call seriously and not just be there for the pay. If you don't want these games, and I respect guys like JRut who no longer take rec games for just this reason, then don't take them. But if you take them, then by-God officiate them properly.

This fight may have been precipitated by the lack of foul calls on the previous contact. Had any one of the elbows, jostles or shoves been called, there may have been no fight.

For this reason, the officials involved may also be named as defendants in the civil lawsuit. Presumably the insurance will cover the damages, as the medical costs were not that extensive. I just wonder why no one has considered this aspect.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Well, I certainly would hate to be labelled "cranky", but the correct spelling is Bueller, dickhead.

You never liked me

I get the spellings confused b/c I had a college professor who spelled it with only one "l". So although, I usually talk about the movie, I have more often had to write it with the professor's spelling. Sorry for the error. I hope I have not done permanent damage to my reputation as supreme authority on all things spelling.

(I was going to intentionally mis-spell "permanent", but I figured you're in too cranky of a mood to get the humor. )

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

You never liked me

I get the spellings confused b/c I had a college professor who spelled it with only one "l". So although, I usually talk about the movie, I have more often had to write it with the professor's spelling. Sorry for the error. I hope I have not done permanent damage to my reputation as supreme authority on all things spelling.

(I was going to intentionally mis-spell "permanent", but I figured you're in too cranky of a mood to get the humor. )

Hey, at least he didn't post here about the time he caught you wanking in the tree...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, that's kinda interesting since the Lawrence kid already admitted in the one story posted that he elbowed the other kid on the way up the court.

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/14892378.htm

Quote "I think I elbowed him in the chest as we were running down the court...." Unquote.

Sure, how does that conflict with what I said. The elbow/push just preceeded the beating and was something often seen in basketball...derserving of a quick whistle....but nothing more than a personal foul. You can't turn any personal foul that the opponent takes offense to into a T just becasue they retaliate.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure, how does that conflict with what I said. The elbow/push just preceeded the beating and was something often seen in basketball...derserving of a quick whistle....but nothing more than a personal foul. You can't turn any personal foul that the opponent takes offense to into a T just becasue they retaliate.

It conflicts because you said that there was NO elbow, Camron. You said "taken alone....without prior incident". There was at least one prior elbowing incident that the Lawrence player admitted to though, and the opposing coach alleged that there were more elbows involved also. The kid admitted to an elbow followed by the push. Two distinct and separate acts. And why can't I turn an act that an opponent retaliates to into a fight btw? NFHS rule 4-18-2 sureasheck says that I can. Aamof that rule says that is the proper and correct call-"Fighting includes but is not limited to combative acts such as an attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act towards an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting". Imo a deliberate push sureasheck could be interpreted as an unsporting act if that deliberate push was immediately followed by a player retaliating by fighting. I'm also not changing any personal foul into a "T" either. With the fighting retaliation, I'm changing an intentional personal foul(the deliberate push without retaliation) into a flagrant personal foul for fighting when there was retaliation. NCAA rule 4-23-3(b) basically says the exact same thing as the FED rule too.

If a player swings at another player and misses, and the second player retaliates by swinging and knocking the first kid cold, breaking his nose and jaw at the same time, would you issue different fouls?

We're just gonna have to disagree on this one.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It conflicts because you said that there was NO elbow, Camron. You said "taken alone....without prior incident". There was at least one prior elbowing incident that the Lawrence player admitted to though, and the opposing coach alleged that there were more elbows involved also. The kid admitted to an elbow followed by the push. Two distinct and separate acts.

I saw the elbow/push as one action...made contact with the elbow/forearm and ended the contact by pushing away with the forarm. The action on the rebound appeared to not involve contact at all. There was no other apparrent contact on the video. The elbow/push was all in the same sequence, not seperate infractions.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And why can't I turn an act that an opponent retaliates to into a fight btw? NFHS rule 4-18-2 sureasheck says that I can. Aamof that rule says that is the proper and correct call-"Fighting includes but is not limited to combative acts such as an attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act towards an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting". Imo a deliberate push sureasheck could be interpreted as an unsporting act if that deliberate push was immediately followed by a player retaliating by fighting. I'm also not changing any personal foul into a "T" either. With the fighting retaliation, I'm changing an intentional personal foul(the deliberate push without retaliation) into a flagrant personal foul for fighting when there was retaliation. NCAA rule 4-23-3(b) basically says the exact same thing as the FED rule too.

If it had happened alone, would you have called it a fight? I doubt it....intentional (by your own statement), but not a fight.

If it had happened alone, without retaliation, would you (could you) have called a T? No. By your assertions in prior posts, live ball contact can only be a personal foul, not a technical.

The fighting rule says that unsporting acts can be considered fighting if they lead to a fight. However, unsporting acts are, by definition, non-contact technical fouls. That means that the actions of the elbow/push can not be an unsporting act/foul. Therefore, it can't be fighting under the retaliation clause.

The only way you can peg the elbow/push as fighting is if you consider it a fighting act by itself. Doing so means that any hard foul would become fighting if the fouled player takes offense.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If a player swings at another player and misses, and the second player retaliates by swinging and knocking the first kid cold, breaking his nose and jaw at the same time, would you issue different fouls?

Both get charged with fighting. Attempting to strike a player with a fist is far different than a elbow/push to the torso.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

We're just gonna have to disagree on this one.

[Mwanr1]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

You never liked me

I get the spellings confused b/c I had a college professor who spelled it with only one "l". So although, I usually talk about the movie, I have more often had to write it with the professor's spelling. Sorry for the error. I hope I have not done permanent damage to my reputation as supreme authority on all things spelling.

(I was going to intentionally mis-spell "permanent", but I figured you're in too cranky of a mood to get the humor. )

You don't have to apologize for having spelling errors. For God Sake this is a damn forum, who gives a shi* about misspelling a word.......

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

You don't have to apologize for having spelling errors. For God Sake this is a damn forum, who gives a shi* about misspelling a word.......

Well, I give a sh!t about people who make statements and then refuse to answer questions about them too.

Again, what does race have to do with incident? Please be specific.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

You don't have to apologize for having spelling errors. For God Sake this is a damn forum, who gives a shi* about misspelling a word.......

It's not "for God Sake". It's "for God's sake".

I only care about my spelling errors, b/c I point them out in other people's posts so frequently. (See above ) You haven't been here very long, so you obviously don't yet recognize me as the final authority on all things spelling.

(Speaking of all things spelling: rest in peace, Aaron. Thank God Tori is still around to carry your legacy!)