Backcourt Violation - Mavs Heat

[mcuban]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Okay, I play along with you that you''re the owner of the Dallas Mavericks. Obviously, I have no way of knowing whether you are or not. Just as obviously, I have to doubt it. But I'll humor you.

its me

First, this is an officiating site. Those who come here and present plays and ask for interpretations will get a correct rulling. Posters who come here to complain about offficiating and how their team was robbed get destroyed. This is our forum. We hear enough of that $hit from fans who don;t know the rules when we're on the floor. We don't have to listen to it here and we won't. Those posters are referred to as fanboys.

understood

Second, the NBA officials are the best basketball officials in the world. Evenso, they make mistakes. Every officials who blows a whistle makes mistakes. They aren't perfect, none of us are. The first perfect game has yet to be officiated, played or coached.

The top ones are, not all. The top 60 arent the top 60 in the world. But they should be. This isnt a knock on the officials or the effort they put in. Its a slam of the hiring and training practices.



Third, a foul in basketball is the most subjective call in sports, with soccer obviously a close second. It's in the eye of the beholder, within the established standards. Consistency can only extend to a certain point. I don;t buy into the conspriacy theory. I believe just as many calls are missed/made on one end as the other. The number of FTs taken doesn't dick. Styles of play, strategy and other issues alter that number. It's a poor way to examinate officiating.

You never heard a word from me comparing number of free throws taken. Nor the number of fouls. i dont buy into the conspiracy theory either. I think over a course of years, the calls even out. In the course of several games, it depends on how evenly matched the 2 teams are and who the officials are. Not all officials are equally good. the disparity can be large. Thats a problem in the NBA.




Finally, The NBA Finals, Mark Cuban and the Dallas Mavericks. You, Don Nelson, and Avery Johnson have done a tremendous job building the team. However, during the Finals, you were the story, not your team. You took the focus off them. While I'm 100% sure you're not an idiot, as I have said you certainly act like one at the games. Perhaps it would be good to separate owner and fan. You gave your guys an excuse to lose. "It's the refs fault. Blame on the refs!"


I wont tell you how to be a ref. If you think the headlines you see, or the 1 minute segments you watch reflect reality, well then...I might as well tell you how to officiate. Our team didnt use any excuses. Our team didnt blame the games on the refs.

Everyone saw what they saw. They saw me get pissed at Derosa for being out of position and missing a crucial call. It happens. you didnt see a single player complain to the officials. You saw me and AJ question calls that were questionable.

You are right, officials miss calls. And officials can hit sour stretches. The best ones dont. Some do. enough said there.





Josh Howard knows damn well he called a timeout. He asked for it, put his hands together and started moving toward the bench. He had a Chris Webber look on his face if there's ever been one. If he didn't want a timeout, he should have been screaming at the top of his lungs. But he didn't becasue he knew he had screwed up. But the next day, he's full of stories.

No he didnt. Watch the tape. Watch it 10 times. Watch every timeout called in the nba this year. In none of them will you see a player make the timeout signal WITHOUT looking at and at least trying to get the attention of the official. Particularly in a game where the arena is loud. It NEVER happens. You couldnt find a single instance in the NBA where a timeout was given where some sort of contact wasnt made with the official. Josh never spoke to, tapped on a shoulder, or even looked at any of the officials. Josh says it. The tape confirms it.

What he was trying to do is confirm with AJ what to do. Again, you couldnt hear anything in the building, it was too loud. He couldnt just shout over. How else would he confirm with his coach to make sure he understoo what he wanted ? (and no, you cant cover every instance in a huddle before hand, and good for josh for wanting to confirm it anyway). so he walked towards the coach making the Timeout sign and AJ made the timeout sign back. Happens all the time.

mistake by the officials .The fact that the league issued a statement to contrary, well look at the tape again and make your own decisions.


You wanted a foul on Wade for that little bit of contact? Were you an NBA fan when Jordan was still dominating? In playoff series against the Pacers, Reggie Miller shoved jordan all the way to the division line, caught the inbounds pass and hit a game winning 3. There was 10 times the contact on that play than there was on the Wade-Terry play. It's not a foul. BTW, that's not Joe DeRosa's call from the lead position.

dont start with relative calls from 10 years ago. Thats fanboy material. '

And no, it was Salvatores call. Its Derosas job to rotate to get an angle when so match action is happening out of his primary. He stood there. Staring at the action.



It's the name of the game these days. Blame the refs. World cup, Super Bowl, NBA Finals, youth league baseball, HS football, it makes no difference. People like yourself, people of position and power, just make it worse.

That's my point of view. Best of luck next year.

In this area, you have no idea what you are talking about. I got fined for saying that we should use the best refs in the playoffs, not use the playoffs as a means of promoting refs (37 of 60 refs officiated in the playoffs this year).

Blame the refs. no. You dont see me blaming joe or danny crawford or javie Even Bavetta. They all called GREAT games. GREAT GREAT games.

Not everyone is up to their standards.

Thats a shame, because with the resourcesavailable to the NBA, we could get the rest of the staff far, far closer.


have you ever tried to make it to the NBA ? talked to those who have ?

Do you realize there are about 10x as many officials in the NBA that have called Belmont vs Winthrop as Duke vs UNC ? Why do you think that is ?

Im curious from to hear about it from someone in the business ?

[mcuban]

in the last message i replied to some of the issues in the original text.

sorry for the confusion..

m

[mcuban]

http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm

[BktBallRef]

Pardon me but WTF is Roland Beech and what are his credentials with regard to officiating? IOW why should anyone care what he thinks?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by mcuban

http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm

I didn't see listed this researcher's qualifications to judge the officiating. However, his genuine belief that the broadcasters on the game are either unbiased or suitably knowledgeable is good reason to doubt his qualifications.

You and we all know that a broadcaster's primary role is to boost ratings. You only need look as far as the failed experiment of putting Earl Strom in the broadcast booth to realize that what drives ratings is not actual rules knowledge or an experienced opinion. What boosts ratings is psuedo-authoritarian (meaning somebody who appears suitably authoritative to the viewer) non-stop sportscaster drivel that makes as much sense to the drunk fans as the sober. Ask yourself, if a controversial call is made, and it's technically correct for reasons that would baffle, or worse bore, viewers, what's your average sportscaster going to do? He's going to bemoan how that was the worst call ever, how it was totally baffling, how the call was made by a rulebook official intent on making himself appear more important than the game. His color commentator will then corroborate his opinion by confessing his complete puzzlement over what just happened. The call will then either fade away into irritating insignificance, or better yet, turn into the kind of controversy that will keep viewers buzzing until the next game. The guy who can keep the viewers buzzing...will be back next season.

While this researcher's data is certainly interesting, and appears to be a genuine attempt at unbiased analysis, it's ultimately just one more opinion from somebody not qualified to give an authoritative evaluation of the officiating.

But thanks for the link, it was interesting reading.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mcuban

http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm

Here's another independant observation on you and your Maverick fans, Markie:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...hitlock/060622

From some of the posts in this thread, I don't think that Whitlock is too far off the mark.

[mcuban]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Here's another independant observation on you and your Maverick fans, Markie:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...hitlock/060622

From some of the posts in this thread, I don't think that Whitlock is too far off the mark.

This is the same guy who in the KC paper the week before said I was the perfect owner and should buy the KC Royals.

You know how to pick em JR !

Is everyone on this forum sour on life like you ? Or are you just here to cheer things up ?

Are you sure you arent some fanboy that works for the media ?

You cant get the rules right (i know you hate the game, never watch). Pick columnists that cant make up their minds.

You cant win for losing, can you ?

I bet both of your friends think it all makes you loveable

m

[SMEngmann]

First, I'd like to say that I welcome Mr. Cuban to the Forum, unlike some others, I feel that he brings a unique perspective that can help us all engage in meaningful discussion. Obviously the site is mainly to discuss plays, mechanics and philosophies among officials, but as long as it's respectful, I think coaches, fans and owners provide great perspective. Coaches appear at officiating camps all the time, this is no different.

I think Mark is genuine in his desire to continually improve the quality of NBA officiating and he wants the best possible, most prepared crews on the games. Having the best officials is only good for business, and it's a goal we share at all levels of officiating. I'm nowhere near the NBA level, but I, and the thousands of other officials continue to strive to have the best possible games, and I know the preparation is there in the NBA. I don't necessarily agree with Cuban's tactics, but hey, what do I know, I'm not an NBA owner.

One thing that has only been touched on briefly is that there are 3 basic tracks for officials, pro, college mens and college womens. Some of the tracks are interchangable, but there are different mechanics and largely different philosophies in each of the tracks. It's been discussed on this forum that some guys who go the pro route can get blackballed and have trouble picking up even quality high school games as a result of working Pro-Am stuff in some areas. I haven't personally experienced any of this, but I've heard of it.

My opinion on where the focus should be as a young official going through the camp system is that there needs to be a lot more connection between the NBA and the colleges. I think the college conferences are largely to blame for the lack of consistency because there really is no one overriding, consistent philosophy across college basketball because different supervisors like different things mechanically and philosophically. The thing the NBA has done well is that they have all their officials on the same page, relatively speaking. I recently heard a Final Four official comment about the disparity in officiating from one side of the country to the other from a mechanical and philosophical perspective. So Mr. Cuban, my point to you is that I think to improve officiating overall, I think there needs to be a closer connection between the pros and the colleges and we need to as officials strive for more uniformity on all levels.

One other point Mark, in regards to the playoff officials. You have a valid point that the top guys should work more often in the playoffs because there's big money at stake, but it seems you are discounting the need for young officials to gain experience in the playoff environment. When the Crawfords and the Bavattas retire, someone's gonna have to step into their shoes as a crew chief, how do you propose the NBA develop the top officials of the future?

[Larks]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

think the college conferences are largely to blame for the lack of consistency because there really is no one overriding, consistent philosophy across college basketball because different supervisors like different things mechanically and philosophically.

Excellent point. How many D1 assigners are there? 19? Thats a minimum of 19 different philosophies out there. That doesnt even consider minor differences between leagues with the same assignor.

I've been to two camps this summer and saw first hand that there are differences in how the supervisor wants you to do certain things. Small example - One preferred that the new trail stays nearer the sideline during transition from BC to FC while the other guy wants us 3 and 3 (3 steps over and 3 steps behind so we have a better look at the play.

So - we adjust (when in rome...). I'm not complaining - I adjusted but this backs up the point that there isnt one consistent philosophy....they may be close but there are some differences.

It's also my sense that when you are making your move to the next level, you pick a track. You go for the D league or CBA and you attend camps geared towards the NBA (Coast to Coast?). Or, you pick the collegiate track and try to get a start with some JUCO or NAIA. Some can do both but at some point, you pretty much have to pick. And, once you leave a college assignor, lets face it, there are 200 new guys a year that are darn good officials ready to slide right in to your slot.

Finally, someone posted earlier, there are officials that are as good as anyone at the high school level. They couldnt make the jump to college because of work or family priorities. I work with them all the time.

One last point - someone mentioned benefits - I think the NBA guys get benefits and some scheduled off time during the season but the bottom line is that it is a grind and you can potentially be away 23 or 24 days a month. But I am betting that the D1 big hitters face the same issue. Everyone picks this avocation for a reason and for some, it can lead to a career. At the end of the day, part of what the NBA and major D1 conferences need are guys that are able to walk the path. It doesnt take the smartest guy to surmise that the NBA and D1 level officials divorce rate is probably twice the normal populations. So that part of it too Mark....Can you commit to the lifestyle as well.

[mcuban]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

One other point Mark, in regards to the playoff officials. You have a valid point that the top guys should work more often in the playoffs because there's big money at stake, but it seems you are discounting the need for young officials to gain experience in the playoff environment. When the Crawfords and the Bavattas retire, someone's gonna have to step into their shoes as a crew chief, how do you propose the NBA develop the top officials of the future?

THere are multiple ways. There are multiple matchups in the regular season that have "playoff intensity". When the Suns and Clippers play for first place in April. Thats a HUGE game with as much at stake as many playoff games. Its the perfect spot to introduce a younger ref to work with more experienced officials.

A few of those, and then a first round game is a natural extension.

The key is flexible scheduling with the goal of developing officials combined with training.

On the flipside, the end of year is also the perfect time to bring up young officials from the NBDL. Rather than waiting for the start of the season. Integrate first time officials into games between non playoff teams. Low stakes, big opportunity for the officials


IMHO

m

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mcuban

In this area, you have no idea what you are talking about. I got fined for saying that we should use the best refs in the playoffs, not use the playoffs as a means of promoting refs (37 of 60 refs officiated in the playoffs this year).

Well Mark, who the best officials and the worst officials are is very subjective point of view. Also the "best" cannot work every night and every game. Someone that is not the "best" is going to work some time.

Originally Posted by mcuban

Blame the refs. no. You dont see me blaming joe or danny crawford or javie Even Bavetta. They all called GREAT games. GREAT GREAT games.

Not everyone is up to their standards.

Thats a shame, because with the resourcesavailable to the NBA, we could get the rest of the staff far, far closer.

No you could not. Not everyone wants to be an NBA official. The top NCAA officials make more money than a rookie NBA official. They also have better job security and they are not considered expendable.

Originally Posted by mcuban

have you ever tried to make it to the NBA ? talked to those who have ?

Yes I have Mark. I have also talked to some officials in the NBA. It is not all peaches and cream and it is also a game that many "amateur" officials like or even respect. Other than a few playoff games I cannot watch the NBA anymore.

Originally Posted by mcuban

Do you realize there are about 10x as many officials in the NBA that have called Belmont vs Winthrop as Duke vs UNC ? Why do you think that is ?

This statement does not even make any sense. Either way it goes not everyone wants to be in the NBA.

Peace

[Snake~eyes]

Can we get an email check on this guy. Brad/Mick? I don't believe its him either, but just for ****s and giggles.

Either that or email me saying its you from a mavericks email addy: [email protected]

[Larks]

For the record - I was initially suspicious too. Last night, I sent an e-mail to him with the subject official forum and and got one back from his dallasmavs.com account almost immediately. Believe it or not, I think this is the real...Mark Cuban.

I wonder if this thread ends up as long as that MLB thread?!?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Larks

For the record - I was initially suspicious too. Last night, I sent an e-mail to him with the subject official forum and and got one back from his dallasmavs.com account almost immediately. Believe it or not, I think this is the real...Mark Cuban.

Well, it it is Cuban, tell him for me that he's a whining, cry-baby typical fanboy that needs to do a whole lot of growing up. If it isn't, tell whoever it is the same damn thing.

To all the Maverick fans out there---in the immortal words of Charles Barkley-- "Why can't you take your azz-whipping like a man and go home".

[mcuban]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, it it is Cuban, tell him for me that he's a whining, cry-baby typical fanboy that needs to do a whole lot of growing up. If it isn't, tell whoever it is the same damn thing.

To all the Maverick fans out there---in the immortal words of Charles Barkley-- "Why can't you take your azz-whipping like a man and go home".

kind of like the *** whipping you took on the NBA block/charge rules...

You still bitter JR ?

m