Backcourt Violation - Mavs Heat

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Got news for you...I ain't mad at all. Just got no use for whiny fanboys, and I got even less use for people who say they are officials and should have enough professionalism to know better.

Now, keep on doing what you do best. Think you can keep up your whining and crying right through to the start of next season? Go for it, fanboy.

"Sticks and stones, love."

[mcuban]

Originally Posted by Snake~eyes

I have talked to many NBA officials, supervisors, former nba officials and what I hear most is that its just not worth it. There are some NCAA officials that could be in the NBA but don't want to because working NBA basketball sucks. You are under large amounts of scrutiny, you are gone 6 (7?) months out of the year, away from any family/friends that you may have. Sure the pay is good but to me its just not worth it, when I can be working a full NCAA schedule, making good money off of a few months out of the year AND I have my regular job which is bringing in my benefits and steady income. Furthermore if I want I can take any day off from officiating basketball, all i have to do is scratch it and I'm good to go. Probably no such system, after hearing NBA officials talk about how they miss their kids birthdays, tball games, christmas...yadyadyada it just doesn't seem worth it to me. Why put yourself through it?

Also I think the basketball sucks, if we took out pay and travel and all that crap. And I just was picking the game to officiate (NBA or NCAA) then I would take a D1 college game. I really don't like the NBA game, I don't watch much NBA during the year, only the playoffs pretty much. And that's only because I like to watch the officials mainly.

Seriously, who wants to go to Dallas and have to listen to you yelling in their face? It's like you want good officials yet you yell and scream at them. Why do I want that? Explain to me what's so good about being an NBA official?

Yeah, instead you can listen to the student section recite your personal life history. I can see your perspective.

[mcuban]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Mark,

Some of the best officials in the country are working HS games only. Not everyone is interested in making the jump to work college or pro. It takes a lot of sacrifice to make those jumps and there are not enough slots for everyone that you or I would consider to be the best.



Why would someone that makes 6 figures working basketball, then another 6 figures working their regular job want to take around $80,000 and with very little job security? A lot of college officials have very good jobs and work college basketball. They get to control their own schedule (they are independent contractors). They get to right a lot of their expenses off their taxes (because it is their business to officiate) and if you have gotten to the level of a Ed Hightower, Steve Welmer or Jim Burr, you are more known in the officiating community than most of the NBA staff. Why would someone want to give all those things up so they can work a year or two in the NBA and if they make one call you do not like, they will not have a job the following year. Now do not get me wrong there is a lot of money at stake at the college level and officials can lose their jobs there, but there are many more games around the country to work and if one conference does not want an official, there are others they can work for. If the NBA does not like you, there is no other place to go at that level.



Look Mark (if this is really you) you have done nothing but complain about the officiating and the system the entire time you have been in the league. You have complained publicly about the staff and I am sure you have voiced your concerns about specific officials to the league. You claimed that certain officials were up to a standard and others were not. Now if you get rid of those guys, where do they have to go? You expect these officials that have never worked a single college game (which is the case with some of the NBA staff) to all of a sudden pick up games at the D1 level? The NBA game is a different game. Many of the officials that got to the NBA did not through HS, college than the NBA to work the NBA. It is not how the NBA chooses officials and is a reason you do not see a lot of officials trying to work NBA games.

Mark you seem like a bright guy and you have made a lot of money in business. Officiating is not like other businesses you have been involved in. Not everyone has the time or energy to work the NBA as an official. Even if you picked a guy that worked just HS, they would have to completely learn the NBA way because the mechanics, rules and philosophies are completely different and would take years to get a hold of as an official. It is a big jump for some of us to when we work a HS game as compared to a small college basketball game. I just do not think you understand the system and if you think you are going to have a NBA officiating staff of the very top 60 then you are not being realistic. Many of the officials that could work the NBA eliminate themselves from working the NBA.

Peace

thanks for the feedback. Im trying to understand what it would take to get the best 60. I realize that officiating college games offers a lot more flexibility and personal time. Just curious how its perceived. Whether officials view it as the pinnacle of their profession or not.

if not, as it appears to be, then thats our fault and we have to make things better.

And for what its worth, i have never gotten anyone fired. In fact, the 1, and only 1 person they fired for quality of work, I didnt think should be fired and that was 5 years ago.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by mcuban

Yeah, instead you can listen to the student section recite your personal life history. I can see your perspective.

So you ask for officials' points of view, then you offer sarcastic remarks when someone posts.

Sorry but I don't understand that mentality. Reminds me of how I've seen you act a games.

[mcuban]

http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm

[BktBallRef]

Pardon me but WTF is Roland Beech and what are his credentials with regard to officiating? IOW why should anyone care what he thinks?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by mcuban

http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm

I didn't see listed this researcher's qualifications to judge the officiating. However, his genuine belief that the broadcasters on the game are either unbiased or suitably knowledgeable is good reason to doubt his qualifications.

You and we all know that a broadcaster's primary role is to boost ratings. You only need look as far as the failed experiment of putting Earl Strom in the broadcast booth to realize that what drives ratings is not actual rules knowledge or an experienced opinion. What boosts ratings is psuedo-authoritarian (meaning somebody who appears suitably authoritative to the viewer) non-stop sportscaster drivel that makes as much sense to the drunk fans as the sober. Ask yourself, if a controversial call is made, and it's technically correct for reasons that would baffle, or worse bore, viewers, what's your average sportscaster going to do? He's going to bemoan how that was the worst call ever, how it was totally baffling, how the call was made by a rulebook official intent on making himself appear more important than the game. His color commentator will then corroborate his opinion by confessing his complete puzzlement over what just happened. The call will then either fade away into irritating insignificance, or better yet, turn into the kind of controversy that will keep viewers buzzing until the next game. The guy who can keep the viewers buzzing...will be back next season.

While this researcher's data is certainly interesting, and appears to be a genuine attempt at unbiased analysis, it's ultimately just one more opinion from somebody not qualified to give an authoritative evaluation of the officiating.

But thanks for the link, it was interesting reading.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mcuban

http://www.82games.com/game5refs.htm

Here's another independant observation on you and your Maverick fans, Markie:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...hitlock/060622

From some of the posts in this thread, I don't think that Whitlock is too far off the mark.

[mcuban]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Here's another independant observation on you and your Maverick fans, Markie:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...hitlock/060622

From some of the posts in this thread, I don't think that Whitlock is too far off the mark.

This is the same guy who in the KC paper the week before said I was the perfect owner and should buy the KC Royals.

You know how to pick em JR !

Is everyone on this forum sour on life like you ? Or are you just here to cheer things up ?

Are you sure you arent some fanboy that works for the media ?

You cant get the rules right (i know you hate the game, never watch). Pick columnists that cant make up their minds.

You cant win for losing, can you ?

I bet both of your friends think it all makes you loveable

m

[SMEngmann]

First, I'd like to say that I welcome Mr. Cuban to the Forum, unlike some others, I feel that he brings a unique perspective that can help us all engage in meaningful discussion. Obviously the site is mainly to discuss plays, mechanics and philosophies among officials, but as long as it's respectful, I think coaches, fans and owners provide great perspective. Coaches appear at officiating camps all the time, this is no different.

I think Mark is genuine in his desire to continually improve the quality of NBA officiating and he wants the best possible, most prepared crews on the games. Having the best officials is only good for business, and it's a goal we share at all levels of officiating. I'm nowhere near the NBA level, but I, and the thousands of other officials continue to strive to have the best possible games, and I know the preparation is there in the NBA. I don't necessarily agree with Cuban's tactics, but hey, what do I know, I'm not an NBA owner.

One thing that has only been touched on briefly is that there are 3 basic tracks for officials, pro, college mens and college womens. Some of the tracks are interchangable, but there are different mechanics and largely different philosophies in each of the tracks. It's been discussed on this forum that some guys who go the pro route can get blackballed and have trouble picking up even quality high school games as a result of working Pro-Am stuff in some areas. I haven't personally experienced any of this, but I've heard of it.

My opinion on where the focus should be as a young official going through the camp system is that there needs to be a lot more connection between the NBA and the colleges. I think the college conferences are largely to blame for the lack of consistency because there really is no one overriding, consistent philosophy across college basketball because different supervisors like different things mechanically and philosophically. The thing the NBA has done well is that they have all their officials on the same page, relatively speaking. I recently heard a Final Four official comment about the disparity in officiating from one side of the country to the other from a mechanical and philosophical perspective. So Mr. Cuban, my point to you is that I think to improve officiating overall, I think there needs to be a closer connection between the pros and the colleges and we need to as officials strive for more uniformity on all levels.

One other point Mark, in regards to the playoff officials. You have a valid point that the top guys should work more often in the playoffs because there's big money at stake, but it seems you are discounting the need for young officials to gain experience in the playoff environment. When the Crawfords and the Bavattas retire, someone's gonna have to step into their shoes as a crew chief, how do you propose the NBA develop the top officials of the future?

[Larks]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

think the college conferences are largely to blame for the lack of consistency because there really is no one overriding, consistent philosophy across college basketball because different supervisors like different things mechanically and philosophically.

Excellent point. How many D1 assigners are there? 19? Thats a minimum of 19 different philosophies out there. That doesnt even consider minor differences between leagues with the same assignor.

I've been to two camps this summer and saw first hand that there are differences in how the supervisor wants you to do certain things. Small example - One preferred that the new trail stays nearer the sideline during transition from BC to FC while the other guy wants us 3 and 3 (3 steps over and 3 steps behind so we have a better look at the play.

So - we adjust (when in rome...). I'm not complaining - I adjusted but this backs up the point that there isnt one consistent philosophy....they may be close but there are some differences.

It's also my sense that when you are making your move to the next level, you pick a track. You go for the D league or CBA and you attend camps geared towards the NBA (Coast to Coast?). Or, you pick the collegiate track and try to get a start with some JUCO or NAIA. Some can do both but at some point, you pretty much have to pick. And, once you leave a college assignor, lets face it, there are 200 new guys a year that are darn good officials ready to slide right in to your slot.

Finally, someone posted earlier, there are officials that are as good as anyone at the high school level. They couldnt make the jump to college because of work or family priorities. I work with them all the time.

One last point - someone mentioned benefits - I think the NBA guys get benefits and some scheduled off time during the season but the bottom line is that it is a grind and you can potentially be away 23 or 24 days a month. But I am betting that the D1 big hitters face the same issue. Everyone picks this avocation for a reason and for some, it can lead to a career. At the end of the day, part of what the NBA and major D1 conferences need are guys that are able to walk the path. It doesnt take the smartest guy to surmise that the NBA and D1 level officials divorce rate is probably twice the normal populations. So that part of it too Mark....Can you commit to the lifestyle as well.

[mcuban]

This is GREAT feedback.

you can bet that i will be including it in a discussion with the NBA powers and suggesting that we work with the 19 to try to create some level of consistency.

It wont happen quickly. It never does where egos and politics are involved, but hopefully we can make some progress.

Keep the info and feedback coming.

[mcuban]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

One other point Mark, in regards to the playoff officials. You have a valid point that the top guys should work more often in the playoffs because there's big money at stake, but it seems you are discounting the need for young officials to gain experience in the playoff environment. When the Crawfords and the Bavattas retire, someone's gonna have to step into their shoes as a crew chief, how do you propose the NBA develop the top officials of the future?

THere are multiple ways. There are multiple matchups in the regular season that have "playoff intensity". When the Suns and Clippers play for first place in April. Thats a HUGE game with as much at stake as many playoff games. Its the perfect spot to introduce a younger ref to work with more experienced officials.

A few of those, and then a first round game is a natural extension.

The key is flexible scheduling with the goal of developing officials combined with training.

On the flipside, the end of year is also the perfect time to bring up young officials from the NBDL. Rather than waiting for the start of the season. Integrate first time officials into games between non playoff teams. Low stakes, big opportunity for the officials


IMHO

m

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

OK.

I saw M&M up in a tree once screeching and wanking off. It was in his front yard. I told him to **** off. I was wrong. Next time I'll just laugh at him and say "O, just another Cubs fan".

Thank you, O Wise One.....

Hey!

How the heck did I get dragged into this? No wonder I'm grumpier than JR...

Well, as long as I'm here, I might as well throw in my two cents. There's always the human factor. I think BBallRef said earlier - the perfect game has never been played, coached, or officiated. No matter how hard you recruit great players, give them great facilities, and give them the best coaching staff money can buy, they will still occasionally miss free throws that will lose a game for the team. The same with officials - you might be able to recruit the best people, give them the best salaries, give them the day off for their kids' birthdays, and they still might have a brain fart on that one, important call. It will happen less often with the better players and officials, but it will still happen. Or, they might just have the one particular angle that doesn't give them the best view. All good officials know it's all about angles; we try to be in position to get the best angle on a play. But, sometimes, we don't get that angle. We could be looking right at a play and it sure looks like that arm got whacked. But when we look at the tape later, we can see there was no contact whatsoever. How many times have you seen a play differently on tape than when you watched it live? The better officials will be in position to see the play more often, but due to the speed of the game, there's no way an official will be in the right place 100% of the time. Just like it will be a long time before we see a player shoot 100% for the season, and a team win 100% of their games.

So, stuff will happen. At some point, there's the law of diminshing returns. Maybe the league can spend a few thousand dollars more to get the % of correct calls up from 92% to 93% (or whatever the actual % is now). But maybe it will cost several million to get it up to 95%? 100% is not possible, so where do they draw the line?

I'm sure you might feel you really are just trying to see to it the league has the best officials. But I think we as officials would feel you have more credibility if you reacted just as passionately in the heat of the moment towards a player that misses a wide-open jumper, or free-throw at the end of a game. If you're in their face, on-camera, as often as you're "in the face" of officials, we might be willing to see that as a genuine passion for winning and a better product. But as long as we see you react towards your players differently that you react towards officials, we don't see you any differently than the average fan - the team is their extended family and they are treated differently than officials. Us vs. Them. Believe me, if I blow a call at the end of a game, I feel just as bad as the player who misses that free-throw. Will you come over and put your arm around me and tell me "that's all right; you'll get it next time" like you do for your player? When you treat your players and officials the same, on and off-camera, you will gain credibility with us. Until then, you appear the same as any average fan, just with more clout.

[mcuban]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Hey!



So, stuff will happen. At some point, there's the law of diminshing returns. Maybe the league can spend a few thousand dollars more to get the % of correct calls up from 92% to 93% (or whatever the actual % is now). But maybe it will cost several million to get it up to 95%? 100% is not possible, so where do they draw the line?


I'm sure you might feel you really are just trying to see to it the league has the best officials. But I think we as officials would feel you have more credibility if you reacted just as passionately in the heat of the moment towards a player that misses a wide-open jumper, or free-throw at the end of a game. If you're in their face, on-camera, as often as you're "in the face" of officials, we might be willing to see that as a genuine passion for winning and a better product. But as long as we see you react towards your players differently that you react towards officials, we don't see you any differently than the average fan - the team is their extended family and they are treated differently than officials. Us vs. Them. Believe me, if I blow a call at the end of a game, I feel just as bad as the player who misses that free-throw. Will you come over and put your arm around me and tell me "that's all right; you'll get it next time" like you do for your player? When you treat your players and officials the same, on and off-camera, you will gain credibility with us. Until then, you appear the same as any average fan, just with more clout.

Everyone thinks im all about missed calls. Im not. I get worked up when the politics manifests itself on performance.

Have i gotten more worked up over players making mistakes. We have cut people. Put them out of the business because they couldnt do the job.

We video tape and watch and review every play and every players action.

I got criticized because i added coaches for individual players. I require that they come in and work on the physical and mental part of the game. I have a team psychologist that works with players to make sure they can do the job to the best of their ability.

For every statistic on the officials, we have 10x the number for players and coaches. Which have made our team better and has won games for us.

Do they still make mistakes. No question. But its very darwinian. The best stay. The rest dont.

Someone said that officials can get blackballed if they are no longer in the NBA. Can you think of someone who has been fired and put in that position in the last 5 years ?


All you guys work other jobs. You have worked at companies where the #1 salesrep, support rep, whatever thought they were indespensable. They broke every company rule and basically did what they please knowing they wouldnt get fired.

When that happens, it creates situations that impacts the performance of their peers and the people who they report to. Its not that far from what Ive seen happen in parts of our industry.

The goal is to create an environment where the best people are put in a position to do the best job. Without the politics.

Thats my goal. Pure and simple.

THe reality is that this is a business and my job as a partner in this business who is heavily invested is to bring all my business ability , my management ability to recognize and enable change.

Like change in any industry. its not easy. its not without criticism, but in the long run it can get much better.

If i was a shareholder in the NCAA, i would be the guy screaming that having 19 D1 assignors is ridiculous. That having differences in approach is ridiculous. That it hurts the product. I would be out front pushing for change and standardization. I would push for benefits so people could committ to the job. But i dont have a horse in the NCAA.

I do have one in the NBA.