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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 07:26am
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Backcourt Violation - Mavs Heat

I'm a football, baseball, softball official, so I am speaking with a lack of knowledge here...

But wasn't that a backcourt violation with 9 seconds to go in OT when Wade, who was established in the front court, caught the inbounds pass while airborne and landed in the back court? Seems to me that he is in the frontcourt until he's not. And since he was in the front court when he caught the ball, it was a violation when he then landed in the back court. I know you're typically allowed to inbounds the ball to the back court, but I thought the person catching the pass had to already be there for that to be legal.

Little help?
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 07:37am
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No violation. This is legal, even in NFHS and NCAA. It used to be a violation, for the reasons you stated. If you jump from the frontcourt, then when you catch the ball, it has frontcourt status. Then when you land in the backcourt, the ball obviously has backcourt status.

However, a few years ago, NCAA and FED added an explicit exception to the backcourt rule for this situation, saying that a player should be allowed a normal landing after catching the ball while airborne. (They also added similar exceptions for defensive steals in a team's own frontcourt, and for a player securing the ball during a jump ball.) The NBA added the same exception when they changed the throw-in/backcourt rules a few years after the NCAA.

Here are the relevant NBA rules.

Quote:
Rule 10 Section X - Ball in Backcourt
a. A player shall not be the first to touch a ball which he or a teammate caused to go from frontcourt to backcourt while his team was in control of the ball. EXCEPTION: Rule 8-Section III-e (EXCEPTION).

Rule 8, Section III
e. Any ball out-of-bounds in a team's frontcourt or at the midcourt line cannot be passed into the backcourt. On all backcourt and midcourt violations, the ball shall be awarded to the opposing team at the midcourt line, and must be passed into the frontcourt.
EXCEPTION: During the last two minutes of the fourth period and/or any overtime period, the ball may be passed anywhere (frontcourt or backcourt) on the court.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 07:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
Here are the relevant NBA rules.
How about 4-VIg?
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 08:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
How about 4-VIg?
g. Frontcourt/backcourt status is not attained until a player with the ball has established a positive position in either half during (1) a jump ball, (2) a steal by a defensive player, or (3) a throw-in in the last two minutes of the fourth period and/or any overtime period.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 08:14am
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Mark Cuban, the idiot who knows so much about officiating, was screaming at Joe DeRosa after the game. Not about the timeout that Joe correctly granted to Dallas but about what he, Cuban, absolutely knew was a BC violation.

Idiot.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 08:35am
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Well damn... I've now been thrown in with a group with Mark Cuban. Where's that cyanide pill when you need it.

(Note - on the timeout, I think it's hard to tell from the TV what really happened - it appears to me in replay that Josh is making the TO signal to his coach, asking a question. But I have to say that if I see that signal on the football field from a player, even if he's looking at his coach, I'm calling the TO too, just like they did last night.)

Thanks for clearing up the backcourt thing for me. If I'd heard Cuban was complaining about it, I would have not brought it up, knowing that if Cuban agreed with me, I must be wrong.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 09:22am
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Yep, you can see Howard signal from the camera angle but it's clear that he's put his hands together and is now moving towards the Mavs bench. Further, you never saw him protesting that he didn't call timeout. He had that stupid Chris Webber look on his face. Joe Crawford issued a statement after the game, ""Josh Howard goes to Joe DeRosa and not only once, but twice asks for timeout. Forced to call it, simple as that."
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 09:24am
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Chuck,

The rules you cited don't seem to specify about jumping from the frontcourt, catching the ball and landing in the backcourt. The exception you cited is about the last 2 minutes, not about keeping the status you had when you left the floor.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not sure you cited the rule completely.

JP
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 09:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
Yep, you can see Howard signal from the camera angle but it's clear that he's put his hands together and is now moving towards the Mavs bench. Further, you never saw him protesting that he didn't call timeout. He had that stupid Chris Webber look on his face. Joe Crawford issued a statement after the game, ""Josh Howard goes to Joe DeRosa and not only once, but twice asks for timeout. Forced to call it, simple as that."
Rookie coaching mistake by Avery. Don't assume anything. Since this is a two shot foul, call a player over before the first shot and tell him explicitly what you want done. Don't expect the player to be on the same page as you when you have an opportunity to communicate directly.

This could easily have been a move to freeze Wade at the line, so the analysts who are blaming the officials are once again shown to be clueless.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 09:47am
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Originally Posted by Jay R
Chuck,

The rules you cited don't seem to specify about jumping from the frontcourt, catching the ball and landing in the backcourt. The exception you cited is about the last 2 minutes, not about keeping the status you had when you left the floor.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not sure you cited the rule completely.

JP
That's why I cited 4IVg. I think that rule is telling you that a player with the ball in the air from a throw-in/steal/jump hasn't established himself anywhere - frontcourt or backcourt- until he lands. Iow, you can't commit a violation until you establish yourself in one or t'other.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 09:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay R
Chuck,

The rules you cited don't seem to specify about jumping from the frontcourt, catching the ball and landing in the backcourt. The exception you cited is about the last 2 minutes, not about keeping the status you had when you left the floor.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not sure you cited the rule completely.

JP
Jay, I'm only a layman here, but this seems clear: "Frontcourt/backcourt status is not attained until a player with the ball has established a positive position in either half during ... a throw-in in the last two minutes of the fourth period and/or any overtime period."

So the status of Wade in this case is not established while he's in the frontcourt until he has positive position, which he didn't have until he caught the ball.

Right?
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 09:48am
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We can't blame the officials, but they sure could have done some things to keep themselves out of trouble. If DeRosa whould have been aware of the game situation, he could have asked Howard if he wanted the TO before or after the free throw.

Of course this would all be moot if Salvatore hadn't kicked the Nowistki foul against Wade.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 09:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
Jay, I'm only a layman here, but this seems clear: "Frontcourt/backcourt status is not attained until a player with the ball has established a positive position in either half during ... a throw-in in the last two minutes of the fourth period and/or any overtime period."

So the status of Wade in this case is not established while he's in the frontcourt until he has positive position, which he didn't have until he caught the ball.

Right?
Add "and landed" after "he caught the ball" and you got it right. The "positive position" is where he lands, not where he took off from.

I think...
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 09:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajun Ref N Texas
We can't blame the officials, but they sure could have done some things to keep themselves out of trouble. If DeRosa whould have been aware of the game situation, he could have asked Howard if he wanted the TO before or after the free throw.

Of course this would all be moot if Salvatore hadn't kicked the Nowistki foul against Wade.
I think that if the player isnt aware of the game sittuation then the ref has to cal it.

Its not our job to make decisions for the coach. If the player calls the T.O. and we don't give it to them it takes away an advantage fro the defensive team ( since now they are out and can't advance the ball).

JMO
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2006, 10:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBBYMO
I think that if the player isnt aware of the game sittuation then the ref has to cal it.

Its not our job to make decisions for the coach. If the player calls the T.O. and we don't give it to them it takes away an advantage fro the defensive team ( since now they are out and can't advance the ball).

JMO
Not so sure about that...while Howard was asking for the t.o., Avery and his ***'t coach (the one who used to be a head coach someplace) were both yelling "No" and giving the big wave-off sign...the ref certainly could have been aware of that...I think that's why Crawford came in and tried to talk de Rosa out of it, but he'd already blown and signalled so by then it really was too late.
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