Should I have been the hard-***?

[Back In The Saddle]

5th game in row this past Saturday, final games of a 3 day tourney. I get a new partner for this game, and I wish I hadn't. Just to set the scene:

• In pre-game he was so busy chatting with the player who was keeping score (the son of one of our local board members, coincidence?), that he will barely acknowledge my presence, let alone engage in any kind of pre-game. I have to ask him his name.
• Reacts to criticism from the crowd by talking back, several times. He offers people the opportunity to come do it better and even threatens to call the game.

After all this, during one timeout I'm holding the ball and he asks me for it so he can shoot around. I ask him quietly, "What, you don't think we've got enough problems already tonight?" He looks at me like he has no idea what I'm talking about. So I toss him the ball and walk away.

At the time I was mentally chanting Mick's mantra: Get in, get done, get out.

Today I'm wondering, as a matter of professionalism or just general principle, if I should have (a) kept the ball and walked away, and/or (b) gotten in this guy's grill about his behavior.

What would you have done? What if it were a regular season game, rather than a summer tourney?

[BktBallRef]

Screw'em. Eat his arse out. He's got it coming.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Screw'em. Eat his arse out. He's got it coming.

Not your place to chew him out, but it is your place to tell the assignor of this particular event not to ever team you with person again. That would probably a better way to get your message across.

[Ref_ Fred]

Not your place to chew him out, but it is your place to tell the assignor of this particular event not to ever team you with person again. That would probably a better way to get your message across.

Asking to not officiate with him again, is just pushing the problem on someone else and not dealing with him. remember when on the court you are a team. If he screws up, you both screw up. So deal with it right then and there. He'll see how much of an unprofessional person he is. Although you have to do it with professionalism.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred

Asking to not officiate with him again, is just pushing the problem on someone else and not dealing with him. remember when on the court you are a team. If he screws up, you both screw up. So deal with it right then and there. He'll see how much of an unprofessional person he is. Although you have to do it with professionalism.

Fred, didya ever think that BITS' assignor might not really want BITS to deal personally with the guy? The guy is the assignor's problem, not BITS'.

Problems like this are the assignor's problem imo. He has to know what's going on, and then it's up to him to deal with the guy. There's a good chance that the assignor may already know what's going on; most assignors aren't that disconnected from the people that they're using. The assignor may need this goofus as a body just to fill out game assignments in these summer AAU-type tournaments, but doesn't really have any plans at all to use him in any meaningful games.

I think that BITS probably handled it the best way for a summer situation. Get in, get done and get out. However, I think that the assignor should still get notified.

In a regular season game however, there's nowayinhell that he's gonna practise his shooting during TO's- I'd break his wrists first.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I think that BITS probably handled it the best way for a summer situation. Get in, get done and get out. However, I think that the assignor should still get notified.

In a regular season game however, there's nowayinhell that he's gonna practise his shooting during TO's- I'd break his wrists first.

Ditto. Especially the underlined part.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Not your place to chew him out, but it is your place to tell the assignor of this particular event not to ever team you with person again. That would probably a better way to get your message across.

Why? So he can do the same thing with other officials, who don't have the 'nads to stand up to him? This obviously isn't the first time his stupidity has shown. Ignoring it and hoping it goes away accomplishes nothing.

On the floor, we're a team. If he's working with me and making us both look badly, you can bet your butt we're going to go somehwere private and have a discussion. He'll understand that I'm not going to put up with it. He's my problem when he's on the floor with me.

[Ref_ Fred]

On the floor, we're a team. If he's working with me and making us both look badly, you can bet your butt we're going to go somehwere private and have a discussion. He'll understand that I'm not going to put up with it. He's my problem when he's on the floor with me.

BktBallRef, well said. He is making both of us look bad. When the game is over any comments will reflect "it's those ref's, not that ref"..

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Why? So he can do the same thing with other officials, who don't have the 'nads to stand up to him? This obviously isn't the first time his stupidity has shown. Ignoring it and hoping it goes away accomplishes nothing.

On the floor, we're a team. If he's working with me and making us both look badly, you can bet your butt we're going to go somehwere private and have a discussion. He'll understand that I'm not going to put up with it. He's my problem when he's on the floor with me.

Really??? And you are assuming that he gives a rat's @$$ what his partner thinks? Based on the type of behavior he is already exhibiting I'm thinking he's really not too much concerned about what his partner thinks. It may just be me but I'm thinking that the assignor chewing him out or the assignor not giving him anymore games carries a lot more punch than "joe blow" referee partner jumping in his butt.

You say

He'll understand that I'm not going to put up with it. He's my problem when he's on the floor with me.

Now what are you going to do to enforce your stance with him? He might just tell you "thanks for your opinion but I'm fine with what I'm doing." (or maybe he'll just say "F*** off")." Now what do you do?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Really??? And you are assuming that he gives a rat's @$$ what his partner thinks? Based on the type of behavior he is already exhibiting I'm thinking he's really not too much concerned about what his partner thinks. It may just be me but I'm thinking that the assignor chewing him out or the assignor not giving him anymore games carries a lot more punch than "joe blow" referee partner jumping in his butt.

You say Now what are you going to do to enforce your stance with him? He might just tell you "thanks for your opinion but I'm fine with what I'm doing." (or maybe he'll just say "F*** off")." Now what do you do?

Like I said before, you have to decide if confronting him during the game is going to make things better or not...if not, why do it then? Wait and confront him later - as I think Tony already said also...

I have had summer league games where I've told my partner at halftime to either pull his head out and ref likes he's supposed to or else just leave and I will do the 2nd half myself...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

What would you have done? What if it were a regular season game, rather than a summer tourney?

It was a summer league game; I would not give a rat's ***. I do not expect all the procedures to be followed during the summer when everything is so informal. I cannot think of a time where I had a "pre-game" with an official during the summer.

Unless the guy threaten a fan or cursed out a player, I would not contact the assignor at all. Once again it is summer league. If anything happen that was so bad, it is not like I will be necessarily working with this guy during the regular season.

If this was the regular season, I would likely say something to him or the assignor. I do not like to say things to an assignor unless I am asked directly about what took place by that assignor or events were reported to them with my knowledge.

Peace

[truerookie]

Back in the Saddle,
I can understand your view point. I take the summer time to continue my transition from U2 to U1 (meaning working on my officiating). I would have asked him a question like. What part of officiating are you working on to improve during the summer? If the light bulb does not come on, I know then this is a warm body to fill games. My two cents

[Dribble]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Reacts to criticism from the crowd by talking back, several times. He offers people the opportunity to come do it better and even threatens to call the game.
After all this, during one timeout I'm holding the ball and he asks me for it so he can shoot around. I ask him quietly, "What, you don't think we've got enough problems already tonight?" He looks at me like he has no idea what I'm talking about. So I toss him the ball and walk away.

Today I'm wondering, as a matter of professionalism or just general principle, if I should have (a) kept the ball and walked away, and/or (b) gotten in this guy's grill about his behavior.

What would you have done? What if it were a regular season game, rather than a summer tourney?

BITS, am I right to assume that this is a new(er) official since you didn't know his name? How long do you think he's reffed for?

Just as another person said, this individual might not have been exposed to professionalism before and not know what's expected.

If one of my partners asked for the ball in that situation I'd simply say quietly to him, "I don't think it's the right time to shoot the ball around."

After your original statement since he looked baffled I wouldn't resign, but I'd clarify it for him and say, "It's probably not professional to do that right now."

I always try to say it politely and without bite in my tone so my partner doesn't get defensive. Teaching opportunities aren't only for players and coaches, but for your partner(s) as well.

[ChrisSportsFan]

I work alot of offseason basketball and I think every assignor would want to know if someone was totally actin a fool. The person running that tournament is probably doing so to make money and the coaches/players/parents are his customers. If they are not happy, they won't be back for the next one. If the tournament director gets to many complaints about the officials, he'll look for someone else to assign his next tournament. IMO, those customers are looking for a competitive, well organized, well officiated tournament. We're an important part of that 3 legged stool.

Possibly, a well worded question during timeouts would keep him there talking officiating philosophies rather that shooting baskets or arguing with fanboy. Could also lead into converstions about areas of concern with him like what his thoughts are on coverage areas, rebounding action, etc.

I'm probably not rippin someone a new one in front of everyone unless I'm truly hoping to finish by myself.

[grizwald]

Not to pile on a ref. I just wanted to emphisize what Chris just pointed out. Even in the summer time; players, referees, parents, coaches, etc... all want games to be called by good officials. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here with this audience, but it might effect how you guys work with partners in these summer games.

For example, my daughter played two weeks ago in an AAU regional tournament. There were fantastic refs for this tournament. Did they get every last call right? I doubt it (but I couldn't really point to a kicked call all weekend)...but they hustled, they had good mechanics, they paid attention, etc.... You don't always see this in summer ball or in youth basketball. I made sure to find the tournament director on Sunday and compliment the officials.

Last weekend we played in a tournament. On Sunday we played in a game that was horribly refed. Nothing against you guys, but these refs (one of the two in particular) were pathetic. There were awful calls (both ways) the whole game. At the end of the game, Team A up 2 with 10 seconds left. Team B has the ball, B1 has the ball on the wing standing still, not guarded close, not driving or dribbling, throws a pass back to the top of the key. The one ref calls a traveling call, that I swear no one in the building saw that way except him. She didn't switch pivot feet or take a dribble, I don't know for sure what he thinks he saw, and neither did anyone else. Her pivot foot didn't even come off the floor, I guess he thought she scooted her pivot foot, but I didn't see it, and I had a good angle.

I guess even if there was a scoot of a half inch that no one else saw, was there really an advantage gained? I guess I'll leave that question to you guys.

After the game Coach A said "I was trying to get them to call traveling the whole game, on some obvious ones, and then that guy whistles some phantom call at the end".

Before the game, the one ref was on the floor and we were waiting a few minutes for this other ref to show up. The ref who was already there was standing by the table, when he sees the other ref show up he says "I'd rather ref this game by myself then work with this clown." I know that goes against everything you guys believe with not selling out your partner and such...but might give you a clue as to this guy's competency level.

The kicker is, our club hosted this tournament. In essence we hired this guy (through an assigner). In the end in doesn't matter, it's just a game and in the long run it means squat. But I wish the assigner could have found more quality refs for the tourney, rather than some "warm bodies" as you guys put it.

I've been around here for a few months, and I hope you guys don't think I'm just ragging on some refs, because really that is not my style. I think anyone who does what you guys do and the level that most of you do it, is very special and really cares about kids. I keep my mouth shut "almost" all the time about the refs, but I feel comfortable venting in this environment.

I just have to keep in mind that even in the summer, everyone is trying to get better. I guess including the refs.

And before you ask, our team lost and my daughter was the one who traveled. We beat the team on Saturday by 19 and lost on Sunday by what ended up being 4 points in OT. But no matter what the refs did or didn't call, if our Center hits a three foot shot at the end of regulation we win the game. No sour grapes here. Just wishing more of you quality guys would work the summer games, rather than leaving it to the "warm bodies". Maybe there isn't enough quality refs to completely cover middle school age girls ball in the summer, given that there is plenty of competition for your services.