Old habits die hard

[ref18]

Today I had a middle school double header, in the first game, the coach was well behaved except for the comments he made to his team which I quickly put a stop to.

Now the second game the guy was an absolute moron. My P calls a held ball, I'm standing right infront of this guys bench and he starts complaining loudly about how the defenders hands were all over his ball carriers hands. You and I know this is legal, but he didn't seem to, so I stop signed him, he then goes on to say, "you guys are aweful" so I whack him. Now here comes the problem he didn't improve. I knew I wasn't gonna kick him out, by me kicking him out I'd have to file a report with the executive and I'm not ready to throw another one in there less than a week after the last one. So I basically knew the one T was all I was gonna give him, I was hoping my partner would do something about it, but he didn't.

Now I don't think there's any question as to whether the coach deserved to be booted out, but I was determined not to be the one to do it.

Have any of you ever been in a similar situation. I was holding back with not T'ing him, although I knew he deserved it becuase I feel giving the T would've hurt my credibility as an official.

I guess the main thing is I don't want to end up looking like Billy Crystal out there

[Edited by ref18 on Feb 10th, 2005 at 11:27 PM]

[SF]

Originally posted by ref18
Now I don't think there's any question as to whether the coach deserved to be booted out,
[Edited by ref18 on Feb 10th, 2005 at 11:27 PM]

I that's what I thought, I would have done it. But I don't usually have enough technicals that I'm worried about that.

[ref18]

Originally posted by SF

I that's what I thought, I would have done it. But I don't usually have enough technicals that I'm worried about that.

I don't give out that many . I worked it out once, only 5% of coaches I deal with get T'd up, it's just the fact of having to report 2 ejections within days of eachother really doesn't look good on me. If I get the coach again later on in the season, and I'm sure I will, I won't have a problem booting his a$$, and I'm not talking about his assistant coach

[just another ref]

Originally posted by ref18
I don't give out that many........it's just the fact of having to report 2 ejections within days of eachother really doesn't look good on me. If I get the coach again later on in the season, and I'm sure I will, I won't have a problem booting his a$$, and I'm not talking about his assistant coach

You don't want to boot 2 coaches within days because it
"doesn't look good on you." So instead, you look forward to next time, when enough time shall have passed that you can boot him then. This concept doesn't look good on you either.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by ref18
I was holding back with not T'ing him, although I knew he deserved it becuase I feel giving the T would've hurt my credibility as an official.

My position is that if a coach deserves a T and you don't issue it, then you are hurting your credibility as an official.

I'm not saying to go looking for trouble but don't hesitate to take the proper action when it is warranted.

If I have a partner that takes too much crap from a coach who has gone way over the line, that partner has lost a lot of respect from me (for what that's worth).

[blindzebra]

This is a problem with how you deal with your partners as much as it is this coach.

After the T, which you gave while he was going after your partner, you should have gotten together and said he gets the next one from you.

Put it in your partner's court, and a good partner WOULD toss him.

You do yourself and the next crew no favors by not taking care of business.

[Forksref]

Originally posted by ref18
Today I had a middle school double header, in the first game, the coach was well behaved except for the comments he made to his team which I quickly put a stop to.

Now the second game the guy was an absolute moron. My P calls a held ball, I'm standing right infront of this guys bench and he starts complaining loudly about how the defenders hands were all over his ball carriers hands. You and I know this is legal, but he didn't seem to, so I stop signed him, he then goes on to say, "you guys are aweful" so I whack him. Now here comes the problem he didn't improve. I knew I wasn't gonna kick him out, by me kicking him out I'd have to file a report with the executive and I'm not ready to throw another one in there less than a week after the last one. So I basically knew the one T was all I was gonna give him, I was hoping my partner would do something about it, but he didn't.

Now I don't think there's any question as to whether the coach deserved to be booted out, but I was determined not to be the one to do it.

Have any of you ever been in a similar situation. I was holding back with not T'ing him, although I knew he deserved it becuase I feel giving the T would've hurt my credibility as an official.

I guess the main thing is I don't want to end up looking like Billy Crystal out there

[Edited by ref18 on Feb 10th, 2005 at 11:27 PM]

I don't rely on my partner to do what I think needs to be done. Idea -> cahones -> follow through

[Indy_Ref]

A "T" is just another call. What does it matter if you give 1, 2, or 3?? It's just another call we have to make. If you're so hell-bent on NOT calling a second, then maybe you shouldn't have called the first? At this level, keep your cool and try to educate the coach on what the proper rules are. If he doesn't want to listen, and continues to be an a$$, then eject him, use the same "canned" paperwork you used for your last incident and get it over with!

Not calling the second one because you "didn't want it to look bad" is the WRONG thing to be thinking here.

[Junker]

I agree with having a conversation with your partner about him or her throwing the second T. If he doesn't and its that bad, get rid of the guy. The state should back you up on that. I know we've all had situations where we didn't want to throw a T and maybe took too much. The way I see it, we don't "give" a T, the coaches or players earn them.

[Adam]

I'm just getting a big-a$$ chuckle out of the fact that people are actually telling ref18 he should have called a T.

[dhodges007]

You've got to be kidding me. I wouldn't want you on my crew knowing that you can't handle a middle school coach. If he earns a T -- hit him. If he deserves another one... see ya. Why does your partner HAVE to give him his second? I understand we want them to, but if they don't you need to be the "R" and toss 'em. If they weren't allowed to get away with their behavior in a future game they sure as heck better not be allowed to get away with it now!

[RollTide]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ref18
[B], so I stop signed him, he then goes on to say, "you guys are aweful" so I whack him.


from what I'm reading into this, the coach has apparently not been pleased with either of you. He may not have said anything til this, but, just because a coach hasn't voiced his/her displeasure doesn't mean they've approved of our work.

Just my perception here, but, from reading your post here, as well as others over the past couple of months, you appear to be a young official that goes onto the court with an ego trip wanting to flaunt your authority.

Don't get me wrong, I know when we go onto the court we are supposed to be in control of the game. But, in officiating basketball, game and people management have almost become as (if not more) important as proper mechanics, judgment, etc.

In reading this forum, it appears there are a few officials that consider a coach commenting or complaining about a call/no-call as unsportsmanlike conduct worthy of being issued a technical foul. Folks, most of these coaches jobs are on the line dependant upon their team's success. Part of their job as a coach is to question why we did or didn't make any particular call. That IS within their legal parameters.

Now, before some of you bring up the 'where in the rule book does it say that a coach may question us' bit, I know what the rule book says concerning 'any bench personnel may not try to influence call', but, if we don't learn to use common sense here, our life as an official won't proceed very high up the ladder. If officiating middle school and lower level games is your ambition, then carry the "everyone should be privileged that I'm refereeing this game tonight' attitude to every game and see how far it will take ya.

Just my 2 cents

[blindzebra]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RollTide
[B]

Originally posted by ref18
, so I stop signed him, he then goes on to say, "you guys are aweful" so I whack him.


from what I'm reading into this, the coach has apparently not been pleased with either of you. He may not have said anything til this, but, just because a coach hasn't voiced his/her displeasure doesn't mean they've approved of our work.

Just my perception here, but, from reading your post here, as well as others over the past couple of months, you appear to be a young official that goes onto the court with an ego trip wanting to flaunt your authority.

Don't get me wrong, I know when we go onto the court we are supposed to be in control of the game. But, in officiating basketball, game and people management have almost become as (if not more) important as proper mechanics, judgment, etc.

In reading this forum, it appears there are a few officials that consider a coach commenting or complaining about a call/no-call as unsportsmanlike conduct worthy of being issued a technical foul. Folks, most of these coaches jobs are on the line dependant upon their team's success. Part of their job as a coach is to question why we did or didn't make any particular call. That IS within their legal parameters.

Now, before some of you bring up the 'where in the rule book does it say that a coach may question us' bit, I know what the rule book says concerning 'any bench personnel may not try to influence call', but, if we don't learn to use common sense here, our life as an official won't proceed very high up the ladder. If officiating middle school and lower level games is your ambition, then carry the "everyone should be privileged that I'm refereeing this game tonight' attitude to every game and see how far it will take ya.

Just my 2 cents

Feel better?

Now step off your high-horse.

There is not an official on this forum that would not whack a coach for saying what the coach said to Ref18, and if you are saying you would not, than you are the reason we HAVE TO DO IT.

A little perspective, there is not a middle school coach in America who's job is on the line for not winning. Schools have to BEG teachers to coach in a lot of places.

It is not much different in high school. Sportsmanship is a POE in the NF. It is REQUIRED in many states, my state has a program that every school MUST comply if they want to have a sports program.

One last thought, what you don't enforce you promote.

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RollTide
[B]

Originally posted by ref18
, so I stop signed him, he then goes on to say, "you guys are aweful" so I whack him.


from what I'm reading into this, the coach has apparently not been pleased with either of you. He may not have said anything til this, but, just because a coach hasn't voiced his/her displeasure doesn't mean they've approved of our work.

Just my perception here, but, from reading your post here, as well as others over the past couple of months, you appear to be a young official that goes onto the court with an ego trip wanting to flaunt your authority.

Don't get me wrong, I know when we go onto the court we are supposed to be in control of the game. But, in officiating basketball, game and people management have almost become as (if not more) important as proper mechanics, judgment, etc.

In reading this forum, it appears there are a few officials that consider a coach commenting or complaining about a call/no-call as unsportsmanlike conduct worthy of being issued a technical foul. Folks, most of these coaches jobs are on the line dependant upon their team's success. Part of their job as a coach is to question why we did or didn't make any particular call. That IS within their legal parameters.

Now, before some of you bring up the 'where in the rule book does it say that a coach may question us' bit, I know what the rule book says concerning 'any bench personnel may not try to influence call', but, if we don't learn to use common sense here, our life as an official won't proceed very high up the ladder. If officiating middle school and lower level games is your ambition, then carry the "everyone should be privileged that I'm refereeing this game tonight' attitude to every game and see how far it will take ya.

Just my 2 cents

Fwiw, I disagree completely with your 2 cents. If you wanna take crap from coaches on a consistent basis, hey, be my guest. Butt-kissing is only gonna take you so far though. If you're afraid of confrontation, you need to find another avocation.

And saying that questioning calls is "within their legal parameters" is just a complete crock'o'crap too.

Don't confuse people and game managements with trying to avoid your responsibilities with regards to proper bench conduct. They're completely different.

[SF]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RollTide
[B]

Originally posted by ref18
, so I stop signed him, he then goes on to say, "you guys are aweful" so I whack him.


from what I'm reading into this, the coach has apparently not been pleased with either of you. He may not have said anything til this, but, just because a coach hasn't voiced his/her displeasure doesn't mean they've approved of our work.

Just my perception here, but, from reading your post here, as well as others over the past couple of months, you appear to be a young official that goes onto the court with an ego trip wanting to flaunt your authority.

Don't get me wrong, I know when we go onto the court we are supposed to be in control of the game. But, in officiating basketball, game and people management have almost become as (if not more) important as proper mechanics, judgment, etc.

In reading this forum, it appears there are a few officials that consider a coach commenting or complaining about a call/no-call as unsportsmanlike conduct worthy of being issued a technical foul. Folks, most of these coaches jobs are on the line dependant upon their team's success. Part of their job as a coach is to question why we did or didn't make any particular call. That IS within their legal parameters.

Now, before some of you bring up the 'where in the rule book does it say that a coach may question us' bit, I know what the rule book says concerning 'any bench personnel may not try to influence call', but, if we don't learn to use common sense here, our life as an official won't proceed very high up the ladder. If officiating middle school and lower level games is your ambition, then carry the "everyone should be privileged that I'm refereeing this game tonight' attitude to every game and see how far it will take ya.

Just my 2 cents

1) You say just because a coach has been quiet doesn't mean he approves of your work. True. But I don't much care if a coach approves of my work. I just don't want to hear too much about it. While it would be nice if every coach could appreciate a good call, they are biased and are not going to approve of any calls that go against them.

2)I agree that game management is very important, which is why I give warnings if coaches are just yapping about calls. But if they continue, or they just cross the line, I have no problem T'ing them up. Another important part of game management is knowing where and when to draw the line.

3) I've heard of more coaches being asked to stop coaching because of unsportsmanlike conduct that embarrassed the school than losing games.

4) Are you saying if a coach was complaining loudly, failed to listen to a warning (the stop sign) and said (I'm assuming still loudly) "You guys are awful" you wouldn't T him?