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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 02:28am
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Coach, if it's rarely called in summer ball, that's one thing. If your players are telling you that their hs coaches don't let them do that move, that tells you that it's NOT ignored during the season. If the hs coaches thought they could get away with it, believe me they would.

But even if it's called only twice a year, why teach the girls things that may not be use-able in other situations? If they stick to the rules, they won't ever have to worry.
Rainmaker,

The exact same refs that call the summer games call the high school games. You are not too familiar with Austin, Texas Girls Basketball because you assumed that the coaches have some talent. The varsity coaches are mostly good, but the JV and Freshman coaches are glorified PE teachers at best or football coaches earning extra money. It is a horrible disservice for these young ladies. Luckily, the majority of my players have reached varsity level as sophmores despite my egregious coaching practices and I don't have to endure the horrible coaching or lack thereof very much.

You ask why teach it? First, I teach about 5 different low post moves, including the power dribble, but obviously, I would rather the posts not dribble.

As far as the "moral objection" you have to my coaching techniques: why do defenders hold cutters up? why do you tap the shooter's elbow if they've been draining shots in your face all day? why do you fall down and scream as if you've been run over by a train when a little point bumps into you on a drive to the basket? Simple answer - you are trying to get a competetive advantage!

(Side note - I do teach jamming the cutter, but I do not tell me girls about tapping the elbow and I don't allow my players to flop! BUT why don't refs call charges if the defender doesn't flop? It's still technically a charge regardless of if the defender is displaced an inch or 3 feet - Sorry, back on topic)

I've thought of two other examples of travelling by the book that are generally accepted during game play:

1) layups - how do you get two steps? If you catch the ball with you left foot down/right foot up then your left foot is the pivot foot. First step with your right foot. Second step picks up your pivot foot and put it back down for you to jump off of. By the book, this is a travel.

2) Reversing the ball aroun the perimeter to the shooter. Shooter cathes the ball with left foot stepping toward the basket in the air, right foot down. After catching the ball, plant the left foot, bring the right foot into shooting position, which has technically displaced the pivot foot.

The drop step described in this post, a layup, and stepping into your shot are all essentially the same move, are these above two examples also travels?

Despite the offense I took towards rainmakers comments and smarta** remarks above (which are probally a bad idea considering his status on this board), I really have appreciated the insight of the officials on the board and look forward to your responses to the question posed above.

Thank you!!
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 02:34am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ATXCoach
Thx Z:

...... it's a travel by the book, but it's rarely called.

This is true of a lot of different moves. Coaches and players think anything is legal as long as it has a name.
No! That's a jump stop. That's a drop step. That's an up and under.

This is frustrating for both the officials who do call the violations that "nobody else calls," and for the players who "have been doing that move all year without a call."
Hard to comment on your move without seeing it, but it sounds pretty blatant to me. Still, practice makes perfect. The smoother your are, the more you get away with. The "too many whistles, let 'em play!" philosophy is not totally without merit, but I find, at all levels, the more you give 'em, the more they take. This applies to everything from holding to traveling to THREE SECONDS to you name it. It is difficult to blame players and coaches for thinking "Keep doing it if they're not gonna call it."
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 05:13am
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ATXcoach, rainmaker is not a he, rainmaker is a she! Also, you surely can't expect to get backed up when you make comments like that on an officials' board and you are a coach. If you can't take the answers then teach how you want to and the officials who do things properly will call what they need to.

Bye bye!
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 09:03am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by ATXCoach
Thx Z:

I agree, it's a travel by the book, but it's rarely called.
If it happens in my game, it's damn sure a traveling violation.
Had this exact play happen twice yesterday. Called it a travel both times and coach (same team) told me that is the way he teaches. I told him that by rule, it is a travel. He talked to my partner me after the game and asked very nicely, if we could elaborate on the rule as he was confused about it. We explained it and he said Thanks.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 10:13am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ATXCoach

Despite the offense I took towards rainmakers comments and smarta** remarks above (which are probally a bad idea considering his status on this board), I really have appreciated the insight of the officials on the board and look forward to your responses to the question posed above.
ATX -- None of my comments were intended to be "moral objections" nor $marta$$. Seriously. I meant everything I said literally and sincerely. In spite of the evidence to the contrary, I generally assume that coaches are reasonable until they prove otherwise. I could not know that hs coaches in your area were lousy, so I didn't assume that. I'm also giving you the benefit of the doubt. Your posts haven't been argumentative or hostile, so I thought perhaps you were really wanting information and not just a battle. I suggested some information that you might use. It's very possible that what I said won't apply in your situation. That doesn't make me a $marta$$.

Furthermore, many of the refs around here who do high school ball also do "classics" and "travelling" tournaments. So that circumstance was factored into my remarks. In fact, it's the best high school refs who do the best "traveling" tournaments. They do ref the two types of games differently. It's part of how they are defined as the best refs, that they are capable of seeing the difference. (PS I'm not including myself in this category. I don't do these games yet) On this board, we usually check out people's assumptions before we blast them or take offense at their posts. I think it would have been reasonable for you to ask if I was assuming that these high school coaches were talented.

I will try not to assume that you are an unreasonable coach, just as I do any other coach, but reacting offensively and with name-calling to a very dry and neutral statement doesn't speak highly in your favor. But perhaps I'm mis-construing your vocabulary the way you mis-understood mine.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 10:39am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ATXCoach

Rainmaker,

The exact same refs that call the summer games call the high school games. You are not too familiar with Austin, Texas Girls Basketball because you assumed that the coaches have some talent. The varsity coaches are mostly good, but the JV and Freshman coaches are glorified PE teachers at best or football coaches earning extra money. It is a horrible disservice for these young ladies. Luckily, the majority of my players have reached varsity level as sophmores despite my egregious coaching practices and I don't have to endure the horrible coaching or lack thereof very much.
Many of us have been saying this for a long time. Usually coaches like yourself want to tell us how qualified you coaches are and how much you know the game and the rules of the game. This is really the case at the girl's levels.

Oh well, I know Juulie (rainmaker) was not being a smartass. That is not her nature or the way she does things around here. I think you should relax and understand that when you ask a question on the public forum, you have to accept the fact that someone might actually answer your question. She answered your question from her point of view and many of us here I am sure agree with that answer.

Peace
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 12:05pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ATXCoach
(Side note - I do teach jamming the cutter, but I do not tell me girls about tapping the elbow and I don't allow my players to flop! BUT why don't refs call charges if the defender doesn't flop? It's still technically a charge regardless of if the defender is displaced an inch or 3 feet - Sorry, back on topic)
Sorry sir but you are wrong. Displacement is based on the official's judgment. That judgment is based on advantage/disadvantage. A defender who is bumped and displaced an inch has NOT been fouled.

Quote:
I've thought of two other examples of travelling by the book that are generally accepted during game play:

1) layups - how do you get two steps? If you catch the ball with you left foot down/right foot up then your left foot is the pivot foot. First step with your right foot. Second step picks up your pivot foot and put it back down for you to jump off of. By the book, this is a travel.
Some layups are traveling violations, some are not. Contrary to what you may think, every layuip does not occur as you post. What you've described is consider three steps, not two.

Quote:
2) Reversing the ball aroun the perimeter to the shooter. Shooter cathes the ball with left foot stepping toward the basket in the air, right foot down. After catching the ball, plant the left foot, bring the right foot into shooting position, which has technically displaced the pivot foot.
Sometimes a jump stop is used, other times the pivot foot is moved, other times the shooter travels.

Quote:
Despite the offense I took towards rainmakers comments and smarta** remarks above (which are probally a bad idea considering his status on this board), I really have appreciated the insight of the officials on the board and look forward to your responses to the question posed above.
I hope you aren't normally this thin skinned. You asked a question. You don't get to tell the respondent how to answer. I don't understand what you're looking for.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 12:08pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by ATXCoach

Despite the offense I took towards rainmakers comments and smarta** remarks above (which are probally a bad idea considering his status on this board), I really have appreciated the insight of the officials on the board and look forward to your responses to the question posed above.
ATX -- None of my comments were intended to be "moral objections" nor $marta$$. Seriously. I meant everything I said literally and sincerely. In spite of the evidence to the contrary, I generally assume that coaches are reasonable until they prove otherwise. I could not know that hs coaches in your area were lousy, so I didn't assume that. I'm also giving you the benefit of the doubt. Your posts haven't been argumentative or hostile, so I thought perhaps you were really wanting information and not just a battle. I suggested some information that you might use. It's very possible that what I said won't apply in your situation. That doesn't make me a $marta$$.

Furthermore, many of the refs around here who do high school ball also do "classics" and "travelling" tournaments. So that circumstance was factored into my remarks. In fact, it's the best high school refs who do the best "traveling" tournaments. They do ref the two types of games differently. It's part of how they are defined as the best refs, that they are capable of seeing the difference. (PS I'm not including myself in this category. I don't do these games yet) On this board, we usually check out people's assumptions before we blast them or take offense at their posts. I think it would have been reasonable for you to ask if I was assuming that these high school coaches were talented.

I will try not to assume that you are an unreasonable coach, just as I do any other coach, but reacting offensively and with name-calling to a very dry and neutral statement doesn't speak highly in your favor. But perhaps I'm mis-construing your vocabulary the way you mis-understood mine.

SORRY, NO, NO ,NO - this will teach me to type at 1:30 in the morning. It was not rainmaker's comments that were smarta**ed, it was mine. I was attempting to actually put myself down.

I did disagree with her comments, but I in no way was looking for a battle. Short summary, I was trying to say that unlike most of Texas, the girls sub-varsity coaches in Austin are not very good. I then went on to say essentially what JUST ANOTHER REF said, in that, if I can get away with it and the move is benefiscial for my player, then the 1 or 2 travelling calls is worth it. Then I made a horrible blunder in leaving out the word "my" before I used the word "smarta**." For that I appologize. I then finished with two other examples that I feel are by the book travels but never called. What I am searching for is some clarity so that I may educate myself and my players on the rules.

I appologize personally to rainmaker as I was not in any way meaning to attack or battle you - I was simply being an idiot (or a "smarta**").

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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 12:27pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by ATXCoach
(Side note - I do teach jamming the cutter, but I do not tell me girls about tapping the elbow and I don't allow my players to flop! BUT why don't refs call charges if the defender doesn't flop? It's still technically a charge regardless of if the defender is displaced an inch or 3 feet - Sorry, back on topic)
Sorry sir but you are wrong. Displacement is based on the official's judgment. That judgment is based on advantage/disadvantage. A defender who is bumped and displaced an inch has NOT been fouled.

Quote:
I've thought of two other examples of travelling by the book that are generally accepted during game play:

1) layups - how do you get two steps? If you catch the ball with you left foot down/right foot up then your left foot is the pivot foot. First step with your right foot. Second step picks up your pivot foot and put it back down for you to jump off of. By the book, this is a travel.
Some layups are traveling violations, some are not. Contrary to what you may think, every layuip does not occur as you post. What you've described is consider three steps, not two.

Quote:
2) Reversing the ball aroun the perimeter to the shooter. Shooter cathes the ball with left foot stepping toward the basket in the air, right foot down. After catching the ball, plant the left foot, bring the right foot into shooting position, which has technically displaced the pivot foot.
Sometimes a jump stop is used, other times the pivot foot is moved, other times the shooter travels.

Quote:
Despite the offense I took towards rainmakers comments and smarta** remarks above (which are probally a bad idea considering his status on this board), I really have appreciated the insight of the officials on the board and look forward to your responses to the question posed above.
I hope you aren't normally this thin skinned. You asked a question. You don't get to tell the respondent how to answer. I don't understand what you're looking for.
Thank you! Please see the post above that I was working on when you submitted yours. I was not in any way trying to attack rainmaker; I failed to acurately word my response.

I apreciate your responses to my hypothetical.

I've started this post to understand why things that are "by the book" travels were not getting called. Every response has said that it is a travel and that they would call it, but few have told me why it's not called.

In your responses, you stated that all three of my examples (drop step, layup, stepping into the shot) are travels as I describe them. Simply put, why are they called so rarely then by the referees in my area? (The referees I am refering to are mostly upper level, experienced high school refs that have earned the right to officiate college games. I would consider them extremely qualified and far more educated to referee than myself, as is everyone of you on this board).

-ATX
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 12:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ATXCoach

I appologize personally to rainmaker as I was not in any way meaning to attack or battle you - I was simply being an idiot (or a "smarta**").

Apology accepted! I figured you weren't an idiot, since all your other responses have been pretty reasonable. So my experience (translate: old age) pays off, in letting me avoid a scrap by giving the benefit of the doubt.

I'm also very willing to admit that a lot of coaches in Austin are idiots. A lot of coaches everywhere are idiots. And I'd be glad to except present company.

I think your best bet in regard to the post plays you're describing is to roll with the punches. If the girls don't want to learn it, then find something else they can work with. From your description, the play sounds as though it's illegal, even if it's never called.

My personal opinion is that you can't lose by teaching players to play completely legally. Even if they only get called for a certain move once a year, if that one call is during the state playoffs or the AAU state championship, it's gonna hurt. If everything is always completely legal, then there's nothing to sweat.

I suggest you modify your drop-step slightly to make it completely legal. Here's how. Have your players take their first step toward the baseline and lift the foot away from the baseline just as they receive the ball. Then the rest of the move is completely legal.

Another modification would be for them to shoot a little earlier, as you point out in your footnote. I can imagine that the shot won't be as accurate, but it also won't be illegal.

Or receiving the ball with their "down" foot as the pivot, they could conceivably pivot 180, take a long step toward the baseline with their non-pivot, lift the pivot and shoot.

I also think it's at least highly possible that the same refs that are calling your games, are calling the hs games, and they're still being called differently. I'd suggest going to some of the best hs games in your area and see if things aren't somewhat tighter than what you get in the summer.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 12:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ATXCoach


Thank you! Please see the post above that I was working on when you submitted yours. I was not in any way trying to attack rainmaker; I failed to acurately word my response.

I apreciate your responses to my hypothetical.

I've started this post to understand why things that are "by the book" travels were not getting called. Every response has said that it is a travel and that they would call it, but few have told me why it's not called.

In your responses, you stated that all three of my examples (drop step, layup, stepping into the shot) are travels as I describe them. Simply put, why are they called so rarely then by the referees in my area? (The referees I am refering to are mostly upper level, experienced high school refs that have earned the right to officiate college games. I would consider them extremely qualified and far more educated to referee than myself, as is everyone of you on this board).

-ATX
First of all travels is the most inconsistent call in all of basketball from the 5th and 6th grade level to the NBA. A lot of officials guess on these calls and a lot of coaches think there are travels that did not even exist. There are many actions that coaches think are travels and is clearly not a travel (sliding players on the floor, jump stops, multiple steps with the non-pivot foot). I have no idea why these things are not called, but I would bet that you probably think there are travels that are not by rule travels. I was not there and no one else is there. But I do know that coaches want this called when there really is nothing to call.

Peace
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 12:59pm
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[/B][/QUOTE]

First of all travels is the most inconsistent call in all of basketball from the 5th and 6th grade level to the NBA. A lot of officials guess on these calls and a lot of coaches think there are travels that did not even exist. There are many actions that coaches think are travels and is clearly not a travel (sliding players on the floor, jump stops, multiple steps with the non-pivot foot). I have no idea why these things are not called, but I would bet that you probably think there are travels that are not by rule travels. I was not there and no one else is there. But I do know that coaches want this called when there really is nothing to call.

Peace [/B][/QUOTE]

I honestly subscribe to the when in doubt, no call theory. The less whistles the better in my book.

I think that I understand the sliding, jump stop, etc. that you mentioned above fairly well, but I am sure that I do not know all. Further, I fully subscribe to the advatage/disadvantage discretion when making a call. I have reffed enoungh youth league games to know that what you guys do is very hard - for that reason I hardly ever question an official of a call they make or don't make. At the end of the day, a lot of calls simply come down to judgment.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 01:11pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:

......... a lot of coaches think there are travels that did not even exist. There are many actions that coaches think are travels and is clearly not a travel (sliding players on the floor, jump stops, multiple steps with the non-pivot foot). I have no idea why these things are not called, but I would bet that you probably think there are travels that are not by rule travels. I was not there and no one else is there. But I do know that coaches want this called when there really is nothing to call.

Peace
Boy isn't that the truth! At GV game on Saturday we had one coach screaming "travel" every time one of the opponents lifted a pivot foot before releasing a pass (perfectly legal as long as pass is released prior to the pivot foot returning to the floor) - Same coach went nuts when his big post player was called for travelling on the "drop step" move as described by the originator of this thread....oh well......
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 01:21pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ATXCoach


I honestly subscribe to the when in doubt, no call theory. The less whistles the better in my book.

That's why, I think, the move you describe is not often called.

When you described it in your first post, it's easy for us to visualize -- LF is the pivot, move the RF, step with the LF ==> violation.

When it's done in practice, as you describe later, while constantly moving, it's hard for an official to tell exactly when the player caught the ball, and where the feet were at the time -- were both feet on the floor, was the RF in the air, or had it already returned to the ground?

It's (generally) better to miss a call than to call something that isn't there -- so (some) officials will (sometimes / often) let this go.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 03:37pm
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Some things I thought of while reading this thread were:

1) sometimes refs are looking at contact up high between the two post players and do not pay close attention to the feet.

2) As a coach, you should be ready to coach "adjustment" to your players, depending on how the refs are calling; be it traveling calls, or a tight game, or a loose game. If your players have 0 fouls, they are not playing aggressive enough or if they foul out, they were playing too aggressive. If the drop step is being called a travel for that game, time to do something else.

3) I agree it is a travel and when I recognize it in my games, I call it. I think it gets called up here consistently.
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