Screaming "BALL BALL BALL" during girls games

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by drinkeii
when the officials aren't even able to keep the players reasonably safe, they are not qualified

In general, I agree with you. However, nothing is perfect. I had a game once that was very "mild" - few fouls, certainly nothing even coming close to "rough play". With about two minutes left, one player just up and punched another player right in the mouth. This was a boys varsity rec game.

No one could have seen this coming and there was nothing beforehand that could have tipped us off.

Both coaches were aghast (get out your dictionary).

BTW - we never found out what prompted it.

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

In general, I agree with you. However, nothing is perfect. I had a game once that was very "mild" - few fouls, certainly nothing even coming close to "rough play". With about two minutes left, one player just up and punched another player right in the mouth. This was a boys varsity rec game.

No one could have seen this coming and there was nothing beforehand that could have tipped us off.

Both coaches were aghast (get out your dictionary).

BTW - we never found out what prompted it.

That is not a consistent lack of control during a game - that is a freak incident, over which the officials have no control. I'm referring to games where the game is out of control from the beginning, with hard fouls not getting called.

I am glad to see someone agrees with me about something

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by drinkeii
So in sports, it is appropriate to scream in another player's face? Simple question. Yes or no?

The question is way too vague to answer.

Scream what?

What sport?

"Appropriate" how?

The answer to your question, though, it "yes" for the specific play described.

[26 Year Gap]

And the dead horse said, "Cut it out! I'm dead already!"

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

The question is way too vague to answer.

Scream what?

What sport?

"Appropriate" how?

The answer to your question, though, it "yes" for the specific play described.

What? Anything other than swearing or taunting specifically, because those are covered elsewhere.

What sport? Any - I don't know of any that involve screaming in opponent's faces that woulnd't be considered unsportsmanlike.

"Appropriate" within the bounds of good sportsmanship.

Give me ONE example of any sport, other than the specific situation described, where it is within the bounds of sportsmanship to scream anything in an opponent's face from 2-3 inches away at the top of your lungs. (Again, leaving out taunting and language)

Dead horse or not... i still think (even though the rules don't support calling a foul in basketball) that that specific action is unsportsmanlike. A coach on here even stated that it was partially to distract the opponent and mess with their concentration.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by drinkeii

That is not a consistent lack of control during a game - that is a freak incident, over which the officials have no control. I'm referring to games where the game is out of control from the beginning, with hard fouls not getting called.

I am glad to see someone agrees with me about something

If it is out of control from the beginning it is the coaches fault, not the officials.

It's subjective too. I've seen coaches screaming for "obvious" fouls when there was zero contact, and "hard or intentional" fouls on players playing the ball with normal contact.

Any time a coach uses the, "You are going to get somebody hurt," or, "Several players got hurt, " they have zero credibility.

I had a game where a player broke his wrist after his shot was blocked. Completely clean play, LGP, verticality and no contact before the block. The offensive player got spun slightly when his shot was blocked and he caught the defenders hip on the way down. His legs went horizontal and he landed on his arm first.

Did I feel bad? Sure.

Was there a foul? No.

Was the injury my fault? No.

You prove JR and my initial impression of you with every post you make.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by drinkeii


So in sports, it is appropriate to scream in another player's face? Simple question. Yes or no?

It is appropriate in the sports I work. I know of no rule that makes it clear that yelling something illegal. I think you are just trying to find something because you do not like it. In all the sports I work, not only are the rules important, but so is custom. The yelling of "ball, ball, ball...." is a custom as long as I can remember in the game of basketball. I know a similar call is made in football when the ball is on the ground. Players are not yelling this to intimidate their opponents; they are letting their teammates of a situation.

Originally posted by drinkeii
As I said - I'll accept the general consensus that it's not a foul. I don't like it - I don't agree with it - But it's not my rules - it's the NFHS rules, and I'll follow those. That was why I brought it up here - to see if I was correct or not - I was not.

You are right, these are the NF rules. I the NF feels this is not appropriate, then they will make a ruling or call to question this action and change the rules to reflect that. Also your state and assignors can make a philosophy change to reflect your opinion. Until then, you are just reaching for straws hoping that someone will go along with your ideal.

Peace

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by blindzebra

If it is out of control from the beginning it is the coaches fault, not the officials.

It's subjective too. I've seen coaches screaming for "obvious" fouls when there was zero contact, and "hard or intentional" fouls on players playing the ball with normal contact.

Any time a coach uses the, "You are going to get somebody hurt," or, "Several players got hurt, " they have zero credibility.

I had a game where a player broke his wrist after his shot was blocked. Completely clean play, LGP, verticality and no contact before the block. The offensive player got spun slightly when his shot was blocked and he caught the defenders hip on the way down. His legs went horizontal and he landed on his arm first.

Did I feel bad? Sure.

Was there a foul? No.

Was the injury my fault? No.

You prove JR and my initial impression of you with every post you make.

See - another post from an official who thinks they are always right. The coaches don't have much control over the contact on the floor. If the refs pass on fouls that allow the game to get out of control, it is most assuradly their fault. Yes, the coaches can tell their teams to go out and head-hunt, or to play nice... what the players do isn't always completely up to the coach. And there are many coaches who teach dirty tactics, to gain an advantage, hoping the refs don't notice or call it.

In this case, it wasn't your fault. But to say that the officials have no responsibility for the safety of the players, and that it is the coach's fault is completely wrong. Not an opinion... that is just completely wrong.

And what opinion is that? I have a slightly different take on things, because I don't believe any official (myself included) is perfect. Some of you guys do. And that is why you're saying you refuse to accept any responsibility when players do get hurt because of a lack of game control. The coaches are certainly within their rights to complain if a number of injuries occur in a game - the refs didn't keep it under control. Or the otehr option is that it is really horribly sloppy play, and that the officials couldn't do anything about it - that is a rare case, from what I have seen. Most sloppy play doesn't lead to injuries - only hard fouls that don't get called consistently.

I would love to hear the opinion you have of me - I attempt to protect the players as a ref, and as a coach. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

Also - if we weren't, as officials, responsible for anything that occurs out on the floor safety-wise, as you say, then why would we need any kind of liability insurance? The coaches would, in your scenario, because they're responsible for excessive contact and fouling, regardless of what the officials choose to call.

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by JRutledge

It is appropriate in the sports I work. I know of no rule that makes it clear that yelling something illegal. I think you are just trying to find something because you do not like it. In all the sports I work, not only are the rules important, but so is custom. The yelling of "ball, ball, ball...." is a custom as long as I can remember in the game of basketball. I know a similar call is made in football when the ball is on the ground. Players are not yelling this to intimidate their opponents; they are letting their teammates of a situation.

You are right, these are the NF rules. I the NF feels this is not appropriate, then they will make a ruling or call to question this action and change the rules to reflect that. Also your state and assignors can make a philosophy change to reflect your opinion. Until then, you are just reaching for straws hoping that someone will go along with your ideal.

Peace

And if that football player gets into an opponent's face and starts screaming that the ball is on the ground, you don't think the officials will step in? Again, I was never talking about communication - I am talking about the 2-3 inch from your face at the top of your lungs screaming.

And last I checked - there is a rule book and case book (and a few others for basketball) - no "custom" book. Just becaue people do it doesn't mean it is sportsmanlike, or should be part of the game. The argument "We've always done it that way" is the worst cop-out you can have to not making a change for the better.

Finally - i was not reaching for straws. I was looking for opinions on how to handle it. We know the general consensus - there is nothing to handle. So best I can do is hope the NFHS sees it for what it is... something not covered in the rules that, at least to me, is clearly unsportsmanlike, and call the game ignoring those actions.

[Edited by drinkeii on Jul 6th, 2005 at 06:33 PM]

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by drinkeii

See - another post from an official who thinks they are always right. The coaches don't have much control over the contact on the floor. If the refs pass on fouls that allow the game to get out of control, it is most assuradly their fault. Yes, the coaches can tell their teams to go out and head-hunt, or to play nice... what the players do isn't always completely up to the coach. And there are many coaches who teach dirty tactics, to gain an advantage, hoping the refs don't notice or call it.

In this case, it wasn't your fault. But to say that the officials have no responsibility for the safety of the players, and that it is the coach's fault is completely wrong. Not an opinion... that is just completely wrong.

And what opinion is that? I have a slightly different take on things, because I don't believe any official (myself included) is perfect. Some of you guys do. And that is why you're saying you refuse to accept any responsibility when players do get hurt because of a lack of game control. The coaches are certainly within their rights to complain if a number of injuries occur in a game - the refs didn't keep it under control. Or the otehr option is that it is really horribly sloppy play, and that the officials couldn't do anything about it - that is a rare case, from what I have seen. Most sloppy play doesn't lead to injuries - only hard fouls that don't get called consistently.

I would love to hear the opinion you have of me - I attempt to protect the players as a ref, and as a coach. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

Also - if we weren't, as officials, responsible for anything that occurs out on the floor safety-wise, as you say, then why would we need any kind of liability insurance? The coaches would, in your scenario, because they're responsible for excessive contact and fouling, regardless of what the officials choose to call.

I never said I was perfect you take an opposing view as ego and wrong, pretty ironic, IMO.

Pot meet kettle.

I work a lot of games. Anywhere from 500 to 800 games a year. I work HS varsity and some JUCO down to little kids and adult rec leagues.

That's a lot of games with a lot of different partners from high quality to brand new, and everything in between.

I have NEVER, in at least 5,000 games, seen a player hurt because the officials lost control of the game.

Add in all the games I've watched while evaluating other officials or just watched because I love it, and I still have never seen it happen.

I have seen players hurt, to be sure, but in several thousand games not one hurt on a cheap, uncalled foul.

Like I said, it's coachspeak and it lends no credibility.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by blindzebra
[/B]

Any time a coach uses the, "You are going to get somebody hurt," or, "Several players got hurt, " they have zero credibility.

[/B][/QUOTE]"You are going to get somebody hurt" is coachspeak for "You need to call a whole bunch of fouls on the other team because I'm not a smart enough coach to figure out a way to beat this team without getting some help".

I think that covers our David's philosophy nicely.

Poor David.

Bad officials doing his games. Bad partners when he officiates. Bad assignor putting people with him and on his games. Bad NFHS for not re-writing the rules to David's liking. Bad posters here for not agreeing with him.

Bad, bad everybody.

Poor, poor David.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by drinkeii


See - another post from an official who thinks they are always right. The coaches don't have much control over the contact on the floor. If the refs pass on fouls that allow the game to get out of control, it is most assuradly their fault. Yes, the coaches can tell their teams to go out and head-hunt, or to play nice... what the players do isn't always completely up to the coach. And there are many coaches who teach dirty tactics, to gain an advantage, hoping the refs don't notice or call it.

In this case, it wasn't your fault. But to say that the officials have no responsibility for the safety of the players, and that it is the coach's fault is completely wrong. Not an opinion... that is just completely wrong.

Are you sure you are an official?

Seriously, when an official decides not to call a foul, it is their fault? That makes no sense at all. I have seen smaller players take on much bigger players and the bigger player did nothing but be big. I guess if a big player sets a legal screen and no teammate calls out the screen for a smaller player and that player hits the floor hard, I guess the officials should take responsibility for not making a call? Dude, what world are you living in? I have called fouls in many rough games and the players or coaches do not stop. That is why players have 5 fouls and teams shoot after 7 fouls.

Originally posted by drinkeii
And what opinion is that? I have a slightly different take on things, because I don't believe any official (myself included) is perfect. Some of you guys do. And that is why you're saying you refuse to accept any responsibility when players do get hurt because of a lack of game control. The coaches are certainly within their rights to complain if a number of injuries occur in a game - the refs didn't keep it under control. Or the otehr option is that it is really horribly sloppy play, and that the officials couldn't do anything about it - that is a rare case, from what I have seen. Most sloppy play doesn't lead to injuries - only hard fouls that don't get called consistently.

I had a game about 6 years ago where a player dislocated his ankle on a lay-up with no one around him. I guess I should feel like it was my responsibility for that very serious injury. As a matter of fact some of the most serious basketball injuries I have seen took place when no contact was made. I kid landed wrong, a slipped trying to make a cut or losing their balance after trying to dunk the ball. There was a kid just recently that died from my area in a tournament down south because he grabbed on the ring and fell on his head. I guess the officials caused that death in your eyes.

Originally posted by drinkeii
I would love to hear the opinion you have of me - I attempt to protect the players as a ref, and as a coach. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

Also - if we weren't, as officials, responsible for anything that occurs out on the floor safety-wise, as you say, then why would we need any kind of liability insurance? The coaches would, in your scenario, because they're responsible for excessive contact and fouling, regardless of what the officials choose to call.

Our job is to call the game according to the rules and the spirit of those rules. Our job is not to protect all players from possible injury. I can call an obvious flagrant foul and a player will still get hurt. I can also call a foul every time there is contact and still have a very serious injury when a player takes actions into his own hands. Not sure what you are talking about. I think coaches have more of a responsibility to keep their player's safe and their opponents. I have seen a lot of teams try dirty tactics and then blame the officials when we make a call. Then you go out of your way to remove us from a conference or off a game when we call things not to your liking.

Do not give me this "it is the official's responsibility" crap. I know as a football officials have seen very serious injuries and the game were played completely within the rules at the time of the injury. There is only so many things any official can do or see.

Peace

[drothamel]

I agree with JRut on this one. Officials can't really prevent fouls, and they certainly can't prevent injuries. The best we can do is hope to deter these things from happening. The simple fact is that if there is a flagrant foul, and a kid gets injured, my seeing and calling that action flagrant does not stop the injury. Now, it is true that it may deter someone else from commiting a similar act and injuring another player, but it can't actually prevent another foul. It works kinda like the justice system, punishments aren't really preventative, they are designed to be deterrents.

In the end, it is up to the players to determine how rough a game is going to be. I just recently had a game with 1 foul in the first half. Both teams in zone defenses, and almost no contact the entire half. In the second half, we had one intentional foul, one techincal foul, and both teams in the bonus. When the kids got physical, we continued to call fouls, but they just wouldn't stop. The game never got out of control, but the players just continued to foul eachother. Even one of the coaches said to me, "I don't know what happened to them. Every kid I put in the game just kept fouling."

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by drinkeii

The coaches don't have much control over the contact on the floor.

Yes, the coaches can tell their teams to go out and head-hunt, or to play nice. And there are many coaches who teach dirty tactics, to gain an advantage, hoping the refs don't notice or call it.

Isn't your first statement contradictory to the other two? I think coaches have much more "control" over the contact on the floor than the officials. Even if we call a ton of fouls, if a kid wants to injure another kid, he's gonna do it.

Also, you're idea that the teams don't always play the way the coaches want them to doesn't really hold up. If a player is playing the opposite of how his coach wants, the coach will pull him.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I'm willing to bet you that over 90% of all officials have coached sports at some level in their lives. It's not unique at all.

I agree.