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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 09:27pm
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jrut, I think you are the one going to far with this. When explaining calls originally came up in this thread, it dealt with the lwer levels of play, and then further discussed as 4th and 5th grade intramurals at a school, where there is probably little coaching and little or no opportunity to practice and explain the game. In this context, the ref must recognize his/her role as an instructor. I have never perceived a quality official that chooses to teach at this level to be weak or biased - just smart and extremely good at what they do. When I get these same refs with my high level players, they call a good game and rarely say anything extra to a player. They know the level they are reffing and behave appropriately.

How many times do we discuss on this thread how 95% of the coaches don't know the rules, especially in rec leagues? Yet you would perpetuate player misinformation and b**hing because you do not see your role as a teacher to the youth that play these games. How can you expect that coaches who will never bother to learn the rules will teach these rules properly to the children playing the game? It is unfair to the kids and a copout for a knowledgeable ref to say "not my job, make that guy who doesn't know the rules teach his kids whatever he wants." You are the sole rule authority on that court, a representative of fair play in basketball. If you care about the sport you ref, you will be an instructor as well as an arbiter for the younger players. Maybe in twenty years, you'll have taught some coaches the rules!
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 10:56pm
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Exclamation You have a right to your opinion.

There is a very fine line in what you are suggesting. If you feel it necessary to teach with the stripes on, you go right ahead. I am not going to do it and many others that know better are not going to do it either. It is not my job and that is no cope out. I could care little about what coaches understand or know. Coaches do not understand the rules at the varsity level, I still am not taking the time to teach them the rules. If I start explaining the rules, all I am going to get is other questions and other misunderstanding. I can explain a simple thing like what the pivot foot is, and it will draw several more questions to "why cannot not do that or why can I do that?" And if you were on the Mcgriff board, you would see how answering the question using the rules about travelling, and the originator of the question (Bump if you do not know) kept trying to find other questions.

I did not do any very lower level basketball this season, but I did do Pop Warner Football almost every single weekend this past season. No matter how many questions that I tried to "teach," all it did was cause further conflict. The coach would try to tell me how much I or my partners did not know the rules. They would try to use NFL logic to NF rules. They would misinterpert the mercy rules and want to argue about that. And at least in football and baseball and softball, there is down time from action to get more questions asked and answered. In Basketball you really do not have that opportunity. If you make a travelling call, you do not sit there and explain every travel, or carry, or foul. You have to keep the game moving because you will blow your whistle much more in a basketball game. I would love to sit and explain everything I am going to call and why I called it. But if I did that, why do we need coaches. And even with coaches, they still do not agree no matter what. I am not going to explain my judgement calls all day. I am just not. If you feel that is your obligation, but I did read a article in "Referee Magazine" a few months ago that talked about that very thing. And in the article it said you are a little more understanding at the lower levels, but we still have a line and an authority to maintain.

You have every right to believe what you do. You are not going to change my mind on this one, and I am really not trying to change your mind at all. Do what you feel is best, I am just do not think "teaching" is my job.

Peace.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 12:35am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
jrut, I think you are the one going to far with this. When explaining calls originally came up in this thread, it dealt with the lwer levels of play, and then further discussed as 4th and 5th grade intramurals at a school, where there is probably little coaching and little or no opportunity to practice and explain the game. In this context, the ref must recognize his/her role as an instructor...How many times do we discuss on this thread how 95% of the coaches don't know the rules, especially in rec leagues? Yet you would perpetuate player misinformation and b**hing because you do not see your role as a teacher to the youth that play these games. How can you expect that coaches who will never bother to learn the rules will teach these rules properly to the children playing the game? It is unfair to the kids and a copout for a knowledgeable ref to say "not my job, make that guy who doesn't know the rules teach his kids whatever he wants." You are the sole rule authority on that court, a representative of fair play in basketball. If you care about the sport you ref, you will be an instructor as well as an arbiter for the younger players. Maybe in twenty years, you'll have taught some coaches the rules!
Hawks Coach has it absolutely right. We need more officials who officiate basketball because they CARE ABOUT THE GAME OF BASKETBALL. And if you really care about the game,you'll gladly accept your role as A PART OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM.

jake
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 01:13am
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You lost me on that one.

Quote:
Originally posted by 112448

Hawks Coach has it absolutely right. We need more officials who officiate basketball because they CARE ABOUT THE GAME OF BASKETBALL. And if you really care about the game,you'll gladly accept your role as A PART OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM.

jake [/B]
What has that have to do with caring about the game?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 02:10am
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You, also, lost me on that one. .

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by 112448

Hawks Coach has it absolutely right. We need more officials who officiate basketball because they CARE ABOUT THE GAME OF BASKETBALL. And if you really care about the game,you'll gladly accept your role as A PART OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM.

jake
What has that have to do with caring about the game? [/B]
I'm with you, Rut.
When should we teach?
Whenever the spirit moves us.
I often teach when a kid says "What'd I do?
Sometimes I teach as Trail, while the Center and Lead are shooting the first.
Other times, like between quarters, a player may ask and be answered.
Is that our job ... our duty? Nope! Not in the book.
mick
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 08:50am
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Wow! What a can of worms...

4th & 5th Grade Intramurals... This is an extremely INFORMAL setting. SO informal that we do NOT wear the Stripes. It is organized and run by the Education staff of this small school. In fact the set-up is the first 45 minutes are coach and player time, followed by the "game"; two 20-minute halves (continuous clock.)

As indicated in my orignal post and supported by several others, this is an opportunity for young players to participate on a team and learn about basketball. Many of the participants will not play on, at higher levels. I "stand by" my original posting, this is a learning environment... The "deer-in-the-headlights" look will always get at least an verbal acknowledgement of "You travelled. You gotta start your dribble first." , etc....

JRUT - I am saddened that you have had negative experiences with coaches and parents. I have done this league for 2 yrs and have not had any negative situations.. On the contrary, many appreciative parents have thanked me for being "so good with the kids."

As for anything other than intramurals, you are right, I will not get into a "disertation" about the rules... I do not expect you to "coach" the team/player. That is why they have a coach and practice. Nonetheless, I am confident that you do well in the "Preventative officiating."

Enjoy...

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 02:48pm
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Question You still do not get it do you?

Quote:
Originally posted by williebfree
JRUT - I am saddened that you have had negative experiences with coaches and parents. I have done this league for 2 yrs and have not had any negative situations.. On the contrary, many appreciative parents have thanked me for being "so good with the kids."

As for anything other than intramurals, you are right, I will not get into a "disertation" about the rules... I do not expect you to "coach" the team/player. That is why they have a coach and practice. Nonetheless, I am confident that you do well in the "Preventative officiating."

Enjoy...

I really do not know what world you are living in? All of us do not do game without putting on the stripes. You assume that we all share the same objectives or should. I do not care if it is the Instructional League, I am still not there to teach, I am there to officiate. It does not matter what the parents or coaches do. Do you really think at the end of the day I give two cents what a bunch of individiuals that did not have to take a rules test think? If you can show me any place in any of the rulebooks that I officiate under where teaching is apart of our mission statement, then I will change. And in the "Officials Code of Ethics" in the NF rulebook, I do not see "teach" anywhere. And if this is the rules that many of these leagues incorporate, then I guess I am not the only one that needs to look it up.

Again, my job is to enforce the rules and educate myself to apply them in a proper manner. I do not see "teaching" in the mission statement. But again, I look at this differently.

Peace
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 07:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by 112448
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
jrut, I think you are the one going to far with this. When explaining calls originally came up in this thread, it dealt with the lwer levels of play, and then further discussed as 4th and 5th grade intramurals at a school, where there is probably little coaching and little or no opportunity to practice and explain the game. In this context, the ref must recognize his/her role as an instructor...How many times do we discuss on this thread how 95% of the coaches don't know the rules, especially in rec leagues? Yet you would perpetuate player misinformation and b**hing because you do not see your role as a teacher to the youth that play these games. How can you expect that coaches who will never bother to learn the rules will teach these rules properly to the children playing the game? It is unfair to the kids and a copout for a knowledgeable ref to say "not my job, make that guy who doesn't know the rules teach his kids whatever he wants." You are the sole rule authority on that court, a representative of fair play in basketball. If you care about the sport you ref, you will be an instructor as well as an arbiter for the younger players. Maybe in twenty years, you'll have taught some coaches the rules!
Hawks Coach has it absolutely right. We need more officials who officiate basketball because they CARE ABOUT THE GAME OF BASKETBALL. And if you really care about the game,you'll gladly accept your role as A PART OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM.

jake
You have got to be kidding! It's just plain impossible
to referee basketball unless you care about the game.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 07:39pm
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Re: You still do not get it do you?

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
[

Again, my job is to enforce the rules and educate myself to apply them in a proper manner. I do not see "teaching" in the mission statement. But again, I look at this differently.

Peace
Rut, I'm with you 100% on this.
Some say very little to the players, some can't keep their
mouths shut (like me for instance). Neither approach
is the correct one, we all bring our personalities onto the
floor. All that matters is that we work a good game.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 09:32pm
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Unhappy too big for the game!!

Jrut...

You may not appreciate this, but you need to learn compassion for the game. There is nothing wrong with doing a little teaching on the floor, regardless of the level. It can happen at any level. Granted, there can be a lot of teaching at the lower level, as you called it (those games which you do not work any more). There can also be teaching at the highest levels. To teach does not mean to hold a clinic. Many times a word or two of explanation can go a long way in teaching.

You say that you do not care what the coaches think or ask. Believe it or not, we (both coaches and officials) are out there for the benefit of the players. If a few seconds of your time can help that player become a better player and person, you have done more for that game than any call that you do make. If you enlighten a coach in order for him to be able to teach better, you have also accomplished a major goal.

My fellow official, you have not seen nearly as much basketball as you think you have. With only 5 years of experience, I promise you that you still have things to tackle on the floor (and off the floor) which you cannot even start to fathom.

If you learn compassion for the game itself, and do what can be done for the good of the game, everybody is the winner. Get rid of that chip on your shoulder. And yes, I have had opportunities to "teach" during games at the D1 level. It does not hurt you....and even garnishes respect from others in the game.

Good luck.....and please consider that the game is not there only for you.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 09:59pm
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Thumbs down Re: Professional help?

Quote:
Originally posted by bigwhistle
Jrut...

You may not appreciate this, but you need to learn compassion for the game. There is nothing wrong with doing a little teaching on the floor, regardless of the level. It can happen at any level. Granted, there can be a lot of teaching at the lower level, as you called it (those games which you do not work any more). There can also be teaching at the highest levels. To teach does not mean to hold a clinic. Many times a word or two of explanation can go a long way in teaching.

You say that you do not care what the coaches think or ask. Believe it or not, we (both coaches and officials) are out there for the benefit of the players. If a few seconds of your time can help that player become a better player and person, you have done more for that game than any call that you do make. If you enlighten a coach in order for him to be able to teach better, you have also accomplished a major goal.

My fellow official, you have not seen nearly as much basketball as you think you have. With only 5 years of experience, I promise you that you still have things to tackle on the floor (and off the floor) which you cannot even start to fathom.

If you learn compassion for the game itself, and do what can be done for the good of the game, everybody is the winner. Get rid of that chip on your shoulder. And yes, I have had opportunities to "teach" during games at the D1 level. It does not hurt you....and even garnishes respect from others in the game.

Good luck.....and please consider that the game is not there only for you.

I think you need to read the Coaches and Officials Code of Ethics in the NF Rulebook. You need to read it very carefully, because I have never seen the word "teach." To teach is to "give lessons," according to the dictionary. It is not my job or any officials job to give anyone a lesson. It is our job to uphold the rules and enforce them. And we must do all of this in a punctual and professional way. It is also my job to master the rules and the mechanics that are put in front of me, but the last time I checked "teaching" was not one of them.

I do not consider myself an expert or think that I am the best officials that ever lived, but I am pretty damn good and did not get where I am in officiating and in life not doing my homework and not working my butt off. And I am sorry, I think it is the upmost of unprofessionalism if you are giving lessons to one team and not the other. Because you are always going to have a team that is not going to need any lessons because their coach can do the job themselves. We are already precieved as being bias and one sided on most occasions. I go to several camps every year, come in contact with many officials every year at many levels, I have never heard any of the ones that have accomplished anything suggest what you suggest. But if that is what you feel is necessary, you do that. Me on the other hand, will never particiapate in that kind of philosophy ever in life on a basketball court or field that I might officiate. I might explain what I called and why I called it, but I am not going to set there and teach a lesson to anyone on that court while the game is going on. I am very approachable and will always answer questions, but there is a fine line in explaining and teaching. My friend you have crossed that line.

Peace.

[Edited by JRutledge on Mar 24th, 2001 at 09:01 PM]
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 10:34pm
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My final observations on this...

Is basketball called an "Extracurricular" activity in schools? Why? Do we "teach" in schools?

extracurricular = not falling within the scope of a regular curriculum; of or relating to officially or semiofficially approved and usually organized student activities (as athletics) connected with school and usually carrying no academic credit

I recently responded to an inquiry from a local athletic director (also a certified official) in regards to the conduct of a particular fan (a parent of a player on one of this school's teams). The gist of that conversation was that the basketball court is a "classroom" and he expects it to be treated with the same respect as a classroom. He also stated that we, as officials, are role models just as his teachers.

I normally do not go out of my way to boast, but feel it is important in this case to include that he also complimented me on my knowledge of the rules, judgement, and game management; especially in the situation that he originally called about.

As has been mentioned, we all have individual styles and our interpretation of the rules is going to differ slightly. Also our views of the role of an official varies. I am willing to accept that as long as our focus is to do our best for the participants.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 24, 2001, 10:57pm
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Re: Re: I hope I do not have to say this again.

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
If you spend that time teaching you are going to be perceived as weak or as being biased.
Balderdash! That's ridiculous. Not in the 4th or 5th grade or so levels we have primarily been talking about.

Quote:
"I think it is the utmost of unprofessionalism if you are giving lessons to one team and not the other."

"If one team is always asking questions and I am explaining every single call or many of them, what does that look like."
Lessons? Every single call? I don't know about the other guys, but I'm not talking about giving a clinic during the game. I'm talking about a quick, "You can't dribble again after you stopped," and then getting to the sideline for a throw-in. Or, "When you set a screen, you can't be moving." And so on. Takes 3 - 5 seconds in most cases. Who cares if it's not in your "job description," as you've reiterated time and again? These little explanations are quick, easy, and show an enjoyment of the kids and a desire for them to learn the game. They don't come from being bombarded with questions, but are offered unsolicited. And they are not given to the coaches, but to the kids themselves just before the ball gets put back in play.

Rut, you must work some "tough" kids' leagues, because in my area the coaches and parents have ALWAYS appreciated the teaching aspect of my officiating. But . . . you're right, we're apparently just not going to agree on any of this. An admittedly closed mind ("You are not going to change my mind on this one.") can't be reasoned with. I have no problem if you choose not to offer a single unsolicited explanation during one of your lower level games. I do have a problem if YOU have a problem with MY choosing to do so. OK, go ahead and have the last word.

[Edited by Todd VandenAkker on Mar 24th, 2001 at 10:08 PM]
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 25, 2001, 12:50am
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Re: Re: Re: I hope I do not have to say this again.

I just want to make something clear to you and others. WE ARE HAVING A DISCUSSION. HAVING A DISCUSSION DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS PERSONAL. IF YOU DISAGREE, IT IS OK TO DO THAT. INTELLIGENT PEOPLE (and I can only assume that you are that way) DISAGREE ALL THE TIME. IT IS NATURAL AND NOT A BAD THING. STOP LOOKING AT EVERY SINGLE CONVERSATION AS A RIGHT AND A WRONG DEBATE. WHAT WORKS FOR YOU MY NOT WORK FOR ME AND WHAT WORKS FOR ME MAY NOT WORK FOR YOU. IT IS PERFECTLY OK TO DISAGREE. JUST BECAUSE I DO SO DOES NOT MEAN THAT I HATE YOU OR THINK YOU ARE STUPID. IT JUST MEANS THAT YOU DISAGREE!!!!!!!!!

Now that I got that off my chest. In conclusion all that I am going to say is that it is not in our job log to "teach" while we are officiating. It has nothing to do with level at all. Of course and I think if you would actally "read" my post, you talk to kids at the lower level much more than the bigger kids, but that does not mean "teaching." If you feel that you need to say something everytime you call something, then do that. I would rather after the game is all said and done "teach" anyone that really wants to know and show interest at that point. But while I have the whistle in my mouth and the stripes on my back, I am there to officiate not teach. Just my opinion. I do not need to compare leagues or go back and forth about what leagues we both do, that is not the point. The point is that we have a job to do. And many of those leagues that you talk about do not have "real" officials in the first place. But do not think for one minute that you are not being watched and regardless of what level you are doing, parents still look for bias and will point it out when they feel necessary. I better conduct myself properly at all times, because the minute I step on the higher levels, and do the bigger kids, those parents that saw me at the lowest of levels remember that. I see myself as a role model not because I am an official, because I am a good human being. It is gravy if you look at my officiating as something to look up to, but I am going to carry myself in a way that I could be anything and kids can look at my life and have something to strive for. We are in an authority role, and if what we do is precieved as bias, whether you want to realize that or not, that is what is remembered by these kids. Coaches coach, fans cheer, and officials up hold the rules. If a kid wants to learn from my knowledge, then ask me after the game or in a setting where I am there to teach. But doing it while I am an officials is not my job. And unless you can find something that encourages what you suggest. I umpire baseball and I never tell a catcher how to catch the ball to get a strike. I officiate football and I do not tell kids how to play their positions. And I officiate basketball in it is not my job to tell them how not to travel or how not to play defense or shoot a shot. And if that is not caring for the game, I guess I do not care about the game, because last time I looked, everyone that it matters too, says that you are to "officiate, not coach."

Peace.

P.S. Just because I said "you are not going to change my mind on this" has very little to do with being close minded. I think I have officiated long enough, been taught by officials much more experinced than myself and most of all, fall back on what the NF says about our role. Do not be mad because your argument did not wash with me. I think I have that right to stand by what "I" believe, and you should do the same.

[Edited by JRutledge on Mar 25th, 2001 at 02:06 AM]
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2001, 12:56am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by C rabby
I am curious where in the NCAA rules book it states that a player can take two steps before shooting. For example, a layup. Thanks in advance for any help; you guys are awesome!
It doesn't.

Typically, what happens in a layup is that the player catches the ball or ceases to dribble while both feet are off the floor. The next foot to touch the floor is the pivot. The second step is by the non-pivot foot. It's then legal for the player to pick up the pivot foot and jump off the non-pivot foot and shoot, prior to returning the pivot to the floor.

What Bkk Ref said is found in NCAA R4-S60-A3.a.2 and A4a, NFHS R4-S43-A2a.2 and A3a, and FIBA R7-A38.2.2.2.2 and A38.3.1.1. Unfortunately, the NCAA, NFHS, and FIBA do not have any casebook plays pertaining to this exact play but A.R. International, Inc., publishes a casebook for FIBA rules that is recognized by FIBA and in its latest (1998) publication it as this exact play (Play 38-8) and the ruling is that it is not traveling.
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