Division Line ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

3) The moment that A1's foot touched the Division Line A1 committed a Backcourt Violation.

What part of the "word salad" backcourt rule had been violated?

NFHS Backcourt 9-9-1: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

Ball was never in the backcourt.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What part of the "word salad" backcourt rule had been violated? NFHS Backcourt 9-9-1: A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt. Ball was never in the backcourt.

Coud this be our support?

NFHS 4-4-3: Ball Location: A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

Flight could mean a try, a pass, or between dribbles?

Between dribbles also includes player control.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The Rule referenced in the heading to my comment is:

"A player is in control of the ball the the player is holding or dribbling a live ball. There is no player control when, during a jump ball, a jumper catches the ball prior to the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper, or during an interrupted dribble"

Furthermore:

2024-25 NCAA Men's Basketball R4-S9-A1b: A player shall be in control when dribbling a live ball inbounds.

2024-25 & 2025-26 NCAA Women's Basketball R4-S8-A1b: A player shall be in control when dribbling a live ball inbounds.

2024-25 NBA Rules Rule 4, Section VI.d(2): A ball being dribbled is in the backcourt if the ball or either foot of the player in in the backcourt.

2025 WNBA Rules Rule 4, Section VI.d(2): A ball being dribbled is in the backcourt if the ball or either foot of the player in in the backcourt.

2024-26 FIBA Rules: Believe me when I say that the FIBA Backcourt Rule is the same as the three/five rules codes but one has to tie multiple Sections together in order to come to the same conclusion. FIBA never (with apologies to J. Dallas Shirley) makes it easy.


It still is a Backcourt Violation!

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It still is a Backcourt Violation!

Because of this?

NFHS 4-4-3: Ball Location: A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

NBA and WNBA make the interpretation perfectly clear.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

2024-25 NBA Rules Rule 4, Section VI.d(2): A ball being dribbled is in the backcourt if the ball or either foot of the player in in the backcourt.

2025 WNBA Rules Rule 4, Section VI.d(2): A ball being dribbled is in the backcourt if the ball or either foot of the player in in the backcourt.

Why can't the NFHS?

Why do we need a special "note" for dribbler near a sideline or an endline, but not for a dribbler near the division line?

If NFHS 4-4-3 Ball Location is our "support" for a backcourt call, wouldn't NFHS 4-4-3 Ball Location also cover a dribbler near a sideline or an endline?

Then why even have a special "note"?

Let's keep it simple and assume that a "dribble" is not an interrupted dribble.

That's a whole different bag of worms in a can.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The Rule referenced in the heading [2024-25 NFHS R4-S12-A1] to my comment is:

"A player is in control of the ball the player is holding or dribbling a live ball. There is no player control when, during a jump ball, a jumper catches the ball prior to the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper, or during an interrupted dribble"

Furthermore:

2024-25 NCAA Men's Basketball R4-S9-A1b: A player shall be in control when dribbling a live ball inbounds.

2024-25 & 2025-26 NCAA Women's Basketball R4-S8-A1b: A player shall be in control when dribbling a live ball inbounds.

2024-25 NBA Rules Rule 4, Section VI.d(2): A ball being dribbled is in the backcourt if the ball or either foot of the player in in the backcourt.

2025 WNBA Rules Rule 4, Section VI.d(2): A ball being dribbled is in the backcourt if the ball or either foot of the player in in the backcourt.

2024-26 FIBA Rules: Believe me when I say that the FIBA Backcourt Rule is the same as the three/five rules codes but one has to tie multiple Sections together in order to come to the same conclusion. FIBA never (with apologies to J. Dallas Shirley) makes it easy.


It still is a Backcourt Violation!

MTD, Sr.

Word "ball" occurs in the:

2024-25 NFHS Basketball: 483 times

2024-25 NCAA Men's Basketball: 689 times

2024-25 & 2025-26 NCAA Women's Basketball: 664 times

2024-25 NBA: 645 times

2025 WNBA: 647 times

2024-26 FIBA: 480 times


Word "location" occurs in the:

2024-25 NFHS Basketball: 18 times

2024-25 NCAA Men's Basketball: 9 times

2024-25 & 2025-26 NCAA Women's Basketball: 13 times

2024-25 NBA: 2 times

2025 WNBA: 2 times

2024-26 FIBA: 9 times


I will now confine my remarks to the NFHS Rules:

‘Ball Location’ R4-S4:

A1: A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.

A2: A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.

A3: A ball which is in flight retains the same location/status as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

A4: A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location/status.


‘Player Location’ R4-S35:

A1: The location/status of a player or nonplayer is determined by where the person is touching the floor as far as being:
a. Inbounds or out-of-bounds.
b. In the frontcourt or backcourt.
c. Outside (behind/beyond) or inside the three-point field-goal line.

A2: When a player is touching the backcourt, out of bounds or the three-point line, the player is located in backcourt, out of bounds or inside the three-point line, respectively.

A3: The location/status of an airborne player with reference to the three factors of Article 1 is the same as at the time such player was last in contact with the floor or an extension of the floor, such as a bleacher.

It appears that everything in the NFHS Rules points the my conclusion that A1 committed a Backcourt Violation.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Ball Location R4-S4: A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player ... is touching the backcourt.

I appreciate the attempt to get my head straight regarding this situation, but I don't believe that this "word salad" (above) matches my situation.

While the player was indeed in the backcourt, he was not in contact with the ball while doing so.

Thus, the best support that I can find for a backcourt violation is ...

NFHS 4-4-3: Ball Location: A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

... and this reference only works if one believes that a ball "between" dribbles is in "flight".

It's easy to believe that a try is a ball in "flight", or that pass is a ball in "flight", but a ball between dribbles is a tough sell.

Why can't the NFHS be like the NBA and WNBA and make this interpterion "perfect in every way"?

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

2024-25 NBA Rules Rule 4, Section VI.d(2): A ball being dribbled is in the backcourt if the ball or either foot of the player in in the backcourt.

2025 WNBA Rules Rule 4, Section VI.d(2): A ball being dribbled is in the backcourt if the ball or either foot of the player in in the backcourt.

Instead, we have to "pin ball" back and forth between different "word salad" sections of the rule book.

The NFHS needs to "reconcile" and/or cleanup 9-3-1-Note and/or 4-9-1:

9-3-1-Note: The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds.

4-9-1: Boundary lines of the court consist of end lines and sidelines.