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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 29, 2020, 12:55pm
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Fun With The Division Line ...

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...cZxkZat11C.mp4

Go at it.
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Old Tue Dec 29, 2020, 01:03pm
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Not sure what we're supposed to go at.

Standard misapplication of the back court rule. No reason for the Center official to interject himself into the play b/c the Trail official was right there to see all the action.
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Old Tue Dec 29, 2020, 01:24pm
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Two Feet And The Ball ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Standard misapplication of the back court rule.
Then I'm wrong because I believe that the call is correct, but I can be convinced otherwise.

Black 33 had already picked up her dribble when she made the pass to Black 24 who was in the backcourt.

Because she wasn't dribbling, the "two feet and the ball" rule doesn't apply, it only applies to a player dribbling the ball across the division line.

Before she made the pass to the backcourt, Black 33 had her right foot fully in the frontcourt and her left foot on the division line, with part of her shoe in the backcourt and part of her shoe in the frontcourt.

I believe that her position and location gave her player control and her team team control in the frontcourt.

But, or course, I could be wrong in my interpretation.

Maybe it's the pivot foot that should matter here?
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Old Tue Dec 29, 2020, 01:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Then I'm wrong because I believe that the call is correct, but I can be convinced otherwise.

Black 33 had already picked up her dribble when she made the pass to Black 24 who was in the backcourt.

Because she wasn't dribbling, the "two feet and the ball" rule doesn't apply, it only applies to a player dribbling the ball across the division line.

Before she made the pass to the backcourt, Black 33 had her right foot fully in the frontcourt and her left foot on the division line, with part of her shoe in the backcourt and part of her shoe in the frontcourt.

I believe that her position and location gave her player control and her team team control in the frontcourt.

But, or course, I could be wrong in my interpretation.

Maybe it's the pivot foot that should matter here?
You are incorrect. Player location is determined by where a player is touching the court per Rule 4. It states that if any part of a player is touching the backcourt, which includes the division line, then the player is located in the backcourt.
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Old Tue Dec 29, 2020, 01:41pm
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Backcourt Location ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
You are incorrect. Player location is determined by where a player is touching the court per Rule 4. It states that if any part of a player is touching the backcourt, which includes the division line, then the player is located in the backcourt.
Thanks Nevadaref.

4-35-2: When a player is touching the backcourt, out of bounds or the three-point line, the player is located in backcourt, out of bounds or inside the three-point line, respectively.

So non-dribbling Black 33, holding the ball with her right foot fully in the frontcourt and her left foot on the division line, with part of her shoe in the backcourt and part of her shoe in the frontcourt, still had backcourt status.

If her left foot had been her pivot foot, she could have legally pivoted so that both feet were in the backcourt.

It's not a "three points" dribbling across the division line situation. It's not a pivot foot situation. It's a player location situation.

Raymond is correct, the Center should have let the Trail (not) make the call.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Dec 29, 2020 at 04:09pm.
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Old Tue Dec 29, 2020, 01:46pm
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Billy, you've been reffing way too long and been involved in way too many rules discussions not to know frontcourt/backcourt status.

I find it extremely hard to believe you didn't know the proper ruling for this play. What you're saying is that for your entire career you thought that a player holding a ball while straddling a division line had frontcourt status.

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Old Tue Dec 29, 2020, 01:56pm
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Screwed Up ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Billy, you've been reffing way too long and been involved in way too many rules discussions not to know frontcourt/backcourt status. I find it extremely hard to believe you didn't know the proper ruling for this play.
I was concentrating on whether, or not, this was a "three points" dribbling across the division line situation, and after determining that it was not, let my guard down, didn't followup and think it through, and screwed up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
What you're saying is that for your entire career you thought that a player holding a ball while straddling a division line had frontcourt status.
When observing a player straddling the division line, I always think about the order that the feet hit the floor, and the pivot foot, which didn't really apply here.

Hey, at least I was smart enough to know what I didn't know, that I wasn't 100% sure of my answer, and to bring my question to the Forum for continuing education.

Plus there were too many confusing lines on the court. And there was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts! It wasn’t my fault, I swear to God!
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Dec 29, 2020 at 02:40pm.
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Old Tue Dec 29, 2020, 02:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I was concentrating on whether, or not, this was a "three points" dribbling across the division line situation, and after determining that it was not, let my guard down, didn't followup and think it through, and screwed up.



When observing a player straddling the division line, I always think about the order that the feet hit the floor, and the pivot foot, which didn't really apply here.

Hey, at least I was smart enough to know what I don't now, that I wasn't 100% sure of my answer, and to bring my question to the Forum for continuing education.

...
All these years you thought a stationary, grounded player who caught a pass or throw-in while straddling the division line had FC status?
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Old Tue Dec 29, 2020, 02:40pm
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Blame The Locusts ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
All these years you thought a stationary, grounded player who caught a pass or throw-in while straddling the division line had FC status?
No. The ended dribble distracted me and screwed me up in this situation.

I should have viewed the situation as a player who caught a pass while straddling the division line, which, in this simplified version would have led me to the correct interpretation, that is, to allow the player to legally pass the ball wherever she wanted to.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Dec 29, 2020 at 02:45pm.
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Old Tue Dec 29, 2020, 06:50pm
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I just noticed the issue. This court is confusing. The division line is the white line and this was an incorrect call all the way. Sorry if that was stated, I just tried to see why there was a disagreement.

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Old Tue Dec 29, 2020, 08:20pm
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Does the player end the dribble with the RF, in the FC being the pivot foot? And is the LF then lifted and moved to the division line? If so, that's a violation as soon as the LF lands again in the BC.
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Old Tue Dec 29, 2020, 10:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I just noticed the issue. This court is confusing. The division line is the white line and this was an incorrect call all the way. Sorry if that was stated, I just tried to see why there was a disagreement.
BillyMac mentioned this as well and I think this is the crux of the matter. C (who I agree should have deferred to the T first) was probably focused on the blue volleyball centerline instead of the white division line. The volleyball court is usually centered with the basketball court, though not always, and when its not, this can happen.

It happened to me two years ago. I recognized my mistake immediately, declared an IW, and we carried on. Nobody minded. I suspect it wasnt the first time the home coach saw that happen.


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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 30, 2020, 09:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
BillyMac mentioned this as well and I think this is the crux of the matter. C (who I agree should have deferred to the T first) was probably focused on the blue volleyball centerline instead of the white division line. The volleyball court is usually centered with the basketball court, though not always, and when its not, this can happen.

It happened to me two years ago. I recognized my mistake immediately, declared an IW, and we carried on. Nobody minded. I suspect it wasnt the first time the home coach saw that happen.
I have seen a few courts like this, you just have to notice it so that you do not get caught up. There is a could in Indiana that has two lines surrounding the division line and people make a big deal about how people mess up knowing which is the division line. Not sure why people that design these courts feel the need to put lines in certain places, but they do.

This was clearly not a BC violation and was likely caused by the court configuration. But change it and move on.

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Old Wed Dec 30, 2020, 10:12am
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Parallel Lines ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
... volleyball centerline instead of the white division line.
We have a high school court here in my little corner of Connecticut that has black lines parallel and very close to (inches) both dark blue endlines (with little room behind said endlines). I've worked there dozens of times, always pregame it with my partners, yet we still occasionally have inadvertent whistles.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 30, 2020, 10:18am
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Pivot Foot ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Does the player end the dribble with the RF, in the FC being the pivot foot? And is the LF then lifted and moved to the division line? If so, that's a violation as soon as the LF lands again in the BC.
Not sure if that left foot is lifted because White #23 and White #32 get in the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Maybe it's the pivot foot that should matter here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
It's not a pivot foot situation.
Maybe this is a pivot foot situation.

Call what you see. Don't call what you don't see.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Dec 30, 2020 at 10:38am.
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